29. From clay tablets to AI: What does it mean “to write?” (with Katie Wolf)
What does it really mean to write? Is it an act or a process? And can AI truly replicate it? In this episode, writer, editor, and book coach Katie Wolf joins Nicole to break down the layers of the word write — from its ancient roots to the modern fear of simply getting started.
Katie shares her personal journey with writing, how self-doubt held her back for years, and the ways she overcame it. The two also discuss AI (of course) and the psychological tug-of-war between writing in private and sharing our work publicly.
In This Episode, You’ll Discover…
The surprising, ancient origins of the word write (hint: it wasn’t always about, well, writing)
Why writing feels both deeply personal and inherently performative
How our biological fear of being seen still affects writers today
How ancient storytelling was closer to performance art than private reflection (and what that means for writers today).
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These transcripts are AI-Generated. Please excuse any errors. :)
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Nicole: [00:00:00] Hi Katie.
Katie: Hi
Nicole: Nicole. I'm so happy to have you here. And for everyone listening, I have Katie Wolf with me, and Katie is a writer and editor, a book coach, which is all going to be super relevant to the word we're talking about today.
Um, and Katie, before we talk about anything else, I just have to say that the way you describe yourself on your website, is amazing., one of the lines that stood out to me was on, I think it's right on your homepage, , you're talking about the fear of not being good enough. . Which I think a lot of people feel ,
Katie: I feel like humanity at large feels that way, but particularly like creative people or people who are trying something new or just putting anything out into the world or thinking about putting something out into the world, there's so much fear about what that, what that means. Are they worthy enough?
Are they good enough? It's just an opportunity for all of these fears to come up, which I don't know if we're always aware of when we start a creative process that it's gonna bring up all these fears, but it, it does.
Nicole: Yeah. [00:01:00] Yeah. And , the line on your site that really got me was where you said that you used to feel not even good enough to show your face on your, on your website.
Mm-hmm. And that, that I relate to that so hard. Like, it's so funny when we think about feeling good enough, we think about these big things like writing a book. But it took me forever, forever to put my photo on my website. And then once I did, it was all like photos of me looking down or drinking coffee.
Katie: Right, right. Very staged. Like, be safe. This feels safe. There's some distance here. Yeah, it's, it's wild when I look at just my own kind of career and business and my comfort level, putting myself as like the face of my, you know, if we want to get, we wanna talk about like a brand. I, I couldn't even, I couldn't post a selfie on Instagram.
The idea of putting a picture of me anywhere on my website, like it just felt like. I didn't want people looking at me. I mean, I wanted to be successful and I wanted to put myself out there to start working with people, but also like, look at me, but don't look at me. And it was this constant back [00:02:00] and forth.
Um, and now it's so funny, I create so much video content, which I'm a big introvert. And, and if you would've told me that 10 years ago, I would've been like, wait, what? You do what? I'm sorry. The tiny baby steps of doing it, getting used to seeing yourself and putting yourself out there, like it really adds up.
And then you can look back and be like, oh yeah, I used to be so afraid of that thing, and now it doesn't really register as a fear anymore, which is pretty cool. Of course, I have other fears now, but it just gets replaced. You know how
Nicole: it's Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but that's so true. As a. Like as a writer, first and foremost.
I think both of us would probably identify in that way and then also have being a business owner, meaning means that like, oh, I can't just be writing all the time.
Katie: Right, exactly. You have to find balance and, and it's, it's interesting too for me, like I, I call myself like a writer, a book editor, a book coach, and I'm always like, what order do I put those things in?
How else do I describe myself? 'cause that's not all I am. And [00:03:00] I'm like, well, I can't have 17 adjectives in my email signature or like, you know, descriptors of who I am.
Nicole: Yeah. Do you ever change 'em around?
Katie: I don't, but I should. I should. Because sometimes I do feel more like a writer. Like it's what I'm focusing on. And then some seasons I'm like really focusing on editing. Some seasons I'm focusing more on coaching, so, or creating content or whatever. So it, it varies.
Nicole: Yeah.
Well, that feels like the perfect moment to ask you. Is there anything else that you want people to know about you, before we get into this episode?
Katie: Yeah, good question. I think those are kind of the big three things that cover it. I am a not yet published author. I have been, um, working, I have an amazing literary agent and I write fiction.
I've written a few novels and I'm hoping I say this every, every so often, but I'm really hoping that this is the year that I get a book. I get a book deal. Um, and so that's something that I'm really prioritizing this year is just really focusing on. Hopefully starting my author career. , [00:04:00] not just writing novels that don't, that don't get published or, you know, essays or, or other things like that, but really putting a lot of focus there.
And yeah, I'm a, a full-time freelancer. I've been doing this for, about six, six or seven years I think. And I was able to quit my day job a few years ago. So this is just what I, what I do. And, , yeah, that's kind of my. Ideal. Yeah. Is everything related to books and, and writing?
Nicole: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So our word of the day that we're talking about is the word right? Very appropriately, which I'm so excited to talk about. It's one of those words that I'm like, how have I not like talked about this on the podcast yet? It's like, feels like such an important, like core word, um, to what everyone's doing.
, but I wanna start by talking about like you and your relationship with the word, which feels obvious 'cause it's so much of your. Career writing, but like how would you describe your personal connection with the word [00:05:00] write?
Katie: I'm so happy that we're talking about this too, because it's one of those words that I use so often and I encounter so often that I just almost don't really stop and think about what it means to me or how it feels to say the word or hear the word and.
So before we recorded this, when we were kind of chatting about setting up this episode, I just like posed the question to myself like, okay, when I hear the word "write", where, what does it feel like in my body? And it is so interesting, and if you're listening, if you're creative at all, I'm sure you can understand this kind of duality.
There's this feeling of like excitement, but also dread in my body. Mm-hmm. That comes up when I hear the word write. And I, I don't think I'm unique in that. The writing process specifically. I mean anything creative, but, but specifically the writing process is so loaded with moments of absolute joy and loving it, and then moments of absolute frustration and beating your head against the wall and why isn't this working?
[00:06:00] And all of those things. And so for me, I feel like there's this feeling in my body, like of both things, the kind of push and pull, which is interesting because. I can't think of a lot of other words that would have that same sort of reaction in my, in my body where there's both. Yeah. If that makes sense.
Um, yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, I think for me too, I tried writing a few times when I was a kid, like just kind of, you know, but there was a, there was a part of me that always felt like a writer and so I, I would try to write and I would. I take a stab at it, and it never really worked because I think I was just, um, I mean, going back to those, that fear that we talked about at the beginning, like I think I was just full of fear and I, I couldn't imagine not being good at it , right away.
And it like, I don't know, there was just a part of me that was so afraid of anyone ever reading what I wrote. Yeah. That I didn't really start writing until I was almost 30. [00:07:00] Um, and so for me, this has been a process of coming to it really mostly as an adult. , developing this relationship with this thing that I love so much and is such a big part of my life, but wasn't there for so many years.
So there's also, I think about that as well. When I think about the word write for me of in the scope of my life. You know, it's really only the last nine years that this has been something I've, that's been a big part of my life.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the, the action of writing feels like behind the scenes, like when you said like there's the fear of the public part of it is what keeps us from doing the behind the scenes part of it.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Nicole: And that feels, well maybe that's not unique. Maybe it's the same with, well, with any creative endeavor. . The fear of anyone seeing it. Keeps us from even doing it, but we don't have to show anyone.
Katie: Yeah. And that's what, that's what I forget. That's what the, the writers that I work with often [00:08:00] forget is like.
Some people just wanna write a book or a short story because they just wanna explore it and it's a, it's a creative outlet and they wanna just write something. They have this desire. But writing something, you're so right. It correct, I feel like. Right, right. Yeah. But it doesn't necessarily mean publishing.
It doesn't necessarily mean this is a career as a writer that you wanna pursue. It might just be something that you feel like you have a story in you, that you want to get out, that you want to express. That doesn't necessarily mean publishing. There are plenty of people who just view this as a hobby and something that they do,
Nicole: you know,
Katie: sporadically kind of on the side, and it's very fulfilling.
So it is interesting that there's automatically this jumping ahead to the perception part of it as opposed to just focusing on the act itself.
Nicole: Yeah. And is that one of the biggest fears you see with the writers you work with?
Katie: Yes. Does that make
Nicole: it hard for them to come to you in the first place? Like, is that a, a [00:09:00] barrier sometimes?
Katie: That's a good question. I, I think that's almost why some people decide to work with me or follow me or, you know, listen to my podcast or whatever is because they're like, this feels like a safer way to kind of do it, like to get some help and some support and have one person, you know, to open up to one person.
, to test the waters a bit before publishing or letting your family and friends read your work or whatever. But I, it's a fear that I see a lot is just fear, self-doubt, fear of not being good enough, not telling a story that's worth telling, not writing something that people want to read. . I think with social media and the internet, it's just, we're so aware because there's such an overlap between writers and readers, we're all very aware of what books are popular, what books are not popular.
It's almost impossible to separate those two things sometimes. , so I do think that's a big fear that a lot of [00:10:00] people have, particularly new writers who are doing this for the first time. They've never encountered these sort of like inner critic voices. So sometimes they're thinking, okay, is this something that I'm just experiencing?
Like I wanna read a book, but, and I see everyone else doing it so easily on social media or you know, these like New York Times bestselling authors and this is something that I wanna do, but I'm scared. Is that normal?
Nicole: And I'm here to say,
Katie: yes, a thousand percent. Yes, that's normal.
Nicole: Have you ever encountered anyone that didn't have an inner critic
Katie: every.
Not with clients. Okay. But in writing groups that I participated in. So when I first started getting into writing, I took a bunch of classes at this literary center and, um, took class classes on all kinds of things. Nonfiction, fiction, business of being a writer, editing, just , anything I could take.
, and there were a couple of classes that had a critique element where you would bring something to share. And we would sort of workshop it and there were a [00:11:00] couple of times now I don't know what was going on in these people's, you know, mind, like internally they might've been wrestling with those same things.
But I will say there were a couple of times like that I can think of where the person just seemed to have an extraordinary level of confidence in their abilities and their writing, it didn't quite, wasn't really reflected in the work. Uh, so I, I like to think that 99% of us have these issues, but I think there are 1%, whether it warrants it or not, who, who don't really struggle with these things.
And I, I always, I'm careful when I talk about it because I don't wanna say that like, struggling and fear and all the process is just gonna be fraught with these things, and that you have to experience them every day when you write because it's not that. I do wanna normalize that a lot of people feel this way and it gets better the longer that you write, the longer that you do anything creative, the easier it gets, the more, the better you get at managing that inner critic voice.
Um, so it's not a [00:12:00] requirement, but I think most of us have it.
Nicole: , yeah, I think that's true. And yeah, , I got my MFA back in 2014, um, and yeah, in those classrooms. Lot. There were a few, there were a few. I remember. I was like, you seem very confident, but maybe they were pretending
Katie: Exactly. Or pretending they didn't have be a
Nicole: critic.
Katie: Could be a front, but yeah. And do you think that was true in your MFA program that like 99%?
Nicole: Yeah, I don't think we talked about it as much back then, to be honest. Yeah. 'cause that was 11 years ago, right. So , I think that the conversation, the public conversation about like inner critic was just really taking off.
Yeah. Social media didn't feel as big. Yeah.
Katie: And that's, that makes sense. There's definitely a, a much bigger, I, I feel like explosion of kind of a writing community on social media. I mean, TikTok wasn't around them. You know, there's just a lot more kind of avenues for writers to talk about things online than even 10, 11 years ago.
Nicole: Cool. Well, let's dive into the [00:13:00] definitions. Are you ready? Yes. Let's do it. All right. So the first, we're going to look at three versions of the definition. The first will be the modern day Merriam Webster. And then we'll look at the 1828 definition from the Webster Dictionary, and then we'll also look at the etymology.
It's super fun. Okay, so, . Write, as you can imagine, has a lot of definitions. So I've picked a few, , the ones that were very similar, I kind of skipped over, but I'll share some of them. So the first is to form characters, symbols, et cetera, on a surface with an instrument such as a pen.
And some of the others are to set down in writing. So such as to draw up, to draft, to compose, to express, to communicate. So I like that we're starting to get like more detailed. Like the first is just like, here is the action. And then it's like, ooh, what are we doing with that action?
Are we composing, are we expressing? , and then some that were unexpected to me are [00:14:00] ordain or fate. Such as like, so be it, it is written as in like a prophecy.
Katie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah. And then if you get further down the definitions, we have to make evident or obvious, such as like there was guilt written across his face.
Katie: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah. And then the last definition is to introduce information into the storage device or medium of a computer.
Katie: Oh, I was wondering if that was gonna come up because the first definition was like the instrument.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: Okay.
Nicole: So I just read five definitions, but does anything stand out to you or did you feel like there's something missing?
Katie: My honest first thought was just about the action that you mentioned, like those first couple of definitions. It is so focused on act mm-hmm. Of putting pen to paper, essentially. Yes. To communicate something, to express something. And it is an action. I mean, it is a verb, but there's. I don't know if you've heard this in the, the kind [00:15:00] of writing community, people will say things like, oh, well, if you're thinking about your book you're writing, or if you're, if you're brainstorming and you're chewing over, you know your characters and thinking about your world, then that counts as writing.
, which I think is half true, like it because brainstorming is an important component of writing. You know, you have to spend time thinking about your world and the conflict in your book or story and your characters and all those things. But ultimately there's an act like an action that has to happen in order to get what's in your head onto the page, because other, otherwise it's easy to spend months or years up in our heads.
Brainstorming and never actually getting anything on the page. So I was really struck by just the action of those, those first few definitions of it.
Nicole: Yeah. No, I love that you said that. I, I've technically been writing a book for 10 years, but I haven't been like writing it.
Katie: Do you work on it occasionally or is it just something you've kind of set aside and think about [00:16:00] Occasionally?
Nicole: I worked on it occasionally for a while, , but I probably haven't touched it since like 2019. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I graduated in 2014. Mm-hmm. But what happened in 2014 was I graduated with an MFA and then I was like, oh, I have to make money and pay back these loans now.
So then, you know, , you get into marketing, you become a copywriter. Here we are. I'm sure you encounter that a lot with writers is like, life has happened.
Katie: Yes. They have the half finished or the, you know, even barely started manuscript that's just been sitting in a drawer or in a file on their computer.
, and it happens a lot with people who are. Parents or in a really busy season of their career where it's like they just don't have capacity. And then something shifts in their life and they're like, you know what, I, I'm ready to devote time to this or to start this. This is something I've always wanted to do.
I find at least for the coaching part of my working with writers that a lot of it is, , it's 95% women who work with me [00:17:00] and who are, you know. Late, mid thirties or older, I would say for the most part, who are like, this is something I wanted to do my entire life is to write a book. And I just feel like right now I have the space to do it.
, or maybe they started a book 20 years ago and they're ready to, to get back into it. So I think that is very common, , because it could be a daunting thing as a new writer, especially if you don't have support or, you know, 20 years ago, I mean, think about the internet was just. Beginning, I'm sure there wasn't a lot of writing content, , out there.
And no real social media to have that community, at least online. , it was definitely there in person. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's something a lot of people struggle with, which makes sense. Life just happens and you have to prioritize certain things. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be nice if we could all just have endless time to devote to our creative works, but.
Nicole: Yeah, it's so important and interesting and because. It does, it feels like [00:18:00] we're getting off track. But also it ties to the definition because like is it, the question is like, is it the act of writing that is right or Oh my God, it's so confusing with the R-I-G-H-T, um, or, or is it like, does it count?
And I think on a philosophical level, Miranda July is someone I admire a lot and she is also very. Big on, Instagram I think is like the main platform. And she posted a video the other day of her dancing as she often does. And the caption said something like, you know, sometimes I feel like I should be sharing my actual writing process of like sitting at the computer and typing.
It's like, but to be honest, that wouldn't happen without this. So it's all part of the process and I really liked that. I love that.
Katie: It's. I think it's true. I think it's a, it's a, it's a yes. And like for me, for me, when I work with people and just how I even think about my own writing, it's like, yes, all of this work is important and all of the [00:19:00] brainstorming and the doing other creative things, like for me, creating content is another creative outlet that I love, , that has nothing to do with like writing fiction or, , working out or spending time with my family or whatever.
That kind of recharges my batteries. Counts and it's all fuel. But yet writing is still the act. It, it, it still is the action ultimately. , and I think it can be easy for me personally, I. Well, not so much anymore, but I think when I was first starting to write, it was very easy for me to fall into that of like, oh, I'm just thinking about my book.
I have to let things percolate. I have to let things stew. I'm always thinking about my book, so that counts. And then realizing that I wasn't really writing, I wasn't sitting down to do any. Any writing, and for me at least, that doesn't feel fulfilling. It doesn't, I start to almost get like a little bit antsy when I've been thinking about things for too long and I'm not actually putting pen to paper or finger sticky board or whatever the action is.
I start to get a little [00:20:00] antsy and I wanna take that action part of it Yeah. To get things out of my head because I just think early if it's if, if things are there for too long. Do you have that experience too?
Nicole: Yeah, I do. I do. And it's so funny. Like even just journaling, right? Just like writing things down or trying to get things down when, even if I'm having an idea when I'm walking the dog, like trying to get it down quickly so that I don't either lose it or so that I don't like spend so much energy trying to hold onto it.
Yes. Like I think that is why I get antsy and need to write is because I'm like, I can't just keep all this up here. I need to keep it somewhere else. Store it somewhere else.
Katie: Exactly. Exactly. There's just so much stuff up here and. In our heads. I feel like everyone has that. You know, we're thinking about like to-do lists and the mental load of all these things and work, and it's just like, I don't know.
There's something so therapeutic about just getting things out. Yeah, clearing some space out there. Yeah.
Nicole: And I think [00:21:00] as much as we know that, like people listening probably like, yeah, I know that, but for me, like I know it, but do I do it all the time? Of course not.
Katie: No, no. It's, it's self, it's so interesting how it can be so difficult for us to do the things that we know are good for us.
Yeah, and that's one of those things. I did a a morning pages experiment a couple of years ago where I did morning pages for three weeks. It was not a huge success or, or I didn't find a huge benefit for my writing, but just my anxiety, my mental health, my morning routine, it was amazing. And then of course, I've done it maybe twice since.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I've had similar experiences. I feel like we all go through our artist's way phases. Yes.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, I think I have to be, like, a lot of people have to be, there has to be that level of discomfort or pain before we make a change and
Nicole: I don't know.
Mm-hmm. I'm
Katie: kind of stubborn that way.
Nicole: Yeah. [00:22:00] Well, and before I'll like do a good run of it and then before I know it, I'll wake up in the morning. I'm like, okay, today I have a really important client project, I have to start right away. Exactly. So like, just today I'm not gonna do it. And before I know it, I'm, I'm totally off the habit.
Katie: Yeah. Same. Or I feel great today, I don't need it. Mm. Not realizing that those things I do consistently are what make me feel good.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: Or I stop doing them.
Nicole: Sometimes we are not the smartest humans. I know.
Katie: I know. We're just humans doing the best we can.
Nicole: Uh, okay, let's look at the 1828 definition. And the reason I like looking at this definition is because it's just usually really poetic and like fun to read and like compare what was important then versus 200 years ago.
Right. Then it, um, is important now. So in 1828, this was the definition of the word right. To form by a pen on paper or other material or by a graver on wood or stone as to write the characters called letters to write [00:23:00] figures. We write characters on paper with pen and ink. We write them on stone with a graving tool.
Katie: So some similarities with the idea of writing letters or, or characters, and. An instrument focusing on the action
Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah. And when we get to the etymology, we'll be able to talk more about this, but I like seeing it this as this like point in history where it's like, oh, we still have this, original writing idea of stone or tablets or, you know, clay.
It's a bit more present than it is now. Now the focus is more like paper computer.
Katie: Right? Right. No, there's never a debate about like, is it better to write on paper or computer or stone to have blood.
Nicole: Yes. Yeah. And then one of the other definitions there, again, there were a long list, but this is the other one that stood out to me, uh, is to impress durable as in [00:24:00] write useful truths on the heart.
Katie: Ooh. Mm-hmm., I like that.
Nicole: Yeah. , and that kind of gets to that, like, behind the scenes of the action. I think a bit more, the, what we've been talking about is like, because I think it's Natalie Goldberg, or is it Ann Lamont?
I'll double check, but one of them, it's, they have the quote , I think it's Ann Lamont. Um, like writing is really just telling the truth, but telling it in like many different ways. You know, you tell it with story, you tell it with. Different words. You don't always tell it direct, you tell it slant.
Right. But it's always writing useful truths on the heart.
, do you ever write by hand?
Katie: When I first started writing, trying to write, I did. Um, and that just, I have not, since it's just not my process. I, there's something to me, so I can, I can tend to romanticize writing by [00:25:00] hand. Um. But it just is not something that works for me and my process. When I write, I try to go as quickly as I can to get the first draft out pretty quickly because I tend to not edit as I go.
I like to just get it out, let it be rough, let it be messy, and then just see what I have to work with and so I can get, I found I was getting very frustrated with writing my hand because I just couldn't keep up with the thoughts and the words that were coming out or, or wanted to come out. So I found that that typing or even dictating in my phone is something that works better, which dictating is a whole other way of thinking about the word.
write
Nicole: Yeah. Because , it doesn't technically fit into our definition. Right. There seems to always involve pen and paper, like tools. Right? Exactly.
Katie: Exactly. I mean, I suppose the tool is the, you know, I, I hold up my phone and kind of speak into it, but even that doesn't feel totally accurate and I, [00:26:00] it's interesting, when I first started trying dictation. I almost felt like I was cheating a bit. Like I wasn't really writing, and I'm putting that in air quotes because of course, that's absurd. Writing. Writing, you know, there's not a certain tool that, that you need to have to do it.
Mm-hmm. But it still felt like, oh, is this, can I write this way? Am I allowed? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh, but I got over that fairly quickly because. Again, with my, my process of just trying to go quickly and get a first draft out of something, it's so nice to just be able to talk out loud and to, I don't look at what I'm writing when I'm dictating, and of course it's the, the, there are missing, you know, periods and run on sentences and it mishears what you're saying, but.
There's something really nice about that, um, for my own process because I can get things out quicker and then go back to edit them [00:27:00] on Microsoft Word on the computer to shape it forward. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. And I mean, with technologies and ai, like they can clean 'em up for you, just like add a period, add periods
yeah. I haven't really tried using, like, I know you can talk into chat GBT, but I haven't tried using that yet.
Katie: I, no, I haven't either. I, I was thinking about our definition of right and thinking about our discussion a bit and like, okay, well, well, at this point in time, in 2025, like chat, GPT or AI has to come up because it's a big discussion in the writing community.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: And I, I have not used chat GPT for anything in the, in the creative process, but, I have. Because one of the editing services that I offer is copy editing, which cleans up the grammar, punctuation, ver tense, all that good stuff. Mm-hmm. I took a piece of my own writing and I got a trial to one of the, I'm not gonna say which one, but not, not chat GPT, but one of the services where, you know, they clean up your grammar for you.
Right. , because [00:28:00] I was curious what the capabilities were and. It was interesting to look at, you know, a five or 10 page sample of writing to see the things that it did catch, which is great. But then the suggestions it was making it was not up to the level of a human capability.
Um, yeah, I have very, very conflicting feelings. I'll just say about AI anywhere near the writing process. Yeah. Yeah,
Nicole: I do too. And there might in the future, like if someone's listening to this 20 years from now, they might think I sound curmudgeonly. Um, but there's something too that, I'm sure people said this, it's so funny.
I'm sure that there were writers who said this when they invented the typewriter, what I'm about to say. But there's something about using AI in the writing process, especially the creative writing process, , that would feel almost like robbing myself. Like that famous quote, maybe it's Joan Didion. I think I'm like misquoting all these people, but I think it's Joan Didion who said, like, I write to figure out what I'm thinking.
Katie: Yeah. Oh.
Nicole: And, and I do [00:29:00] think that that's like such a huge part of it. So I, I do think that kind of going straight to AI is robbing yourself a bit of like. Talking about the things you really believe and that writing on your heart, writing the truths of the heart and writing what you stand for. , like if you go straight to ai, I do think you, you will miss out on that type of stuff.
Katie: Right. Just thinking about the truth element of it, if you're outsourcing that to a computer, how is that, how is writing then telling your truth? Mm-hmm. I think it's. I'm not under any illusions that I'm personally gonna be able to police AI in the writing industry or, or publishing industry. But I think kind of what I've settled on is like, I don't, I, I'm just very wary of AI anywhere generative AI anywhere in the writing process, brainstorming, actually writing.
I don't think it's. [00:30:00] Useful. I don't think it's helpful. And also if you want to write a book, you want to write a book, you want, you want to take the action and come up with the idea. Otherwise, you know, do you really wanna write a book? If you just want to put a prompt in the chat, GPT and say, write a book for me about this topic.
, where it does get a little bit more murky for me are the kind of tools, like the grammar tools that clean things up. Yeah. That aren't necessarily generating ideas, but might be options for writers to help them in that part of the process that like is much more of the gray area. I feel like for me, personally, I, I know what I, my, it's not part of my process, but again, I think it's, it's a bit of a gray area with, with other people.
Nicole: Yeah. And in in the world I occupy most days, which is marketing. I feel like it's even, it's, it's more murky for me, like with writing a book, I feel clear I'm, I, I'm not gonna use ai. I really don't think anyone should use AI for brainstorming. Right? With marketing, there is something about it, that I think makes having a [00:31:00] business more accessible to someone.
Right. And I like that. , like hiring a copywriter, like hiring. Me to like write your website for you or write your sales emails for you. It's going to obviously be more expensive. And if someone's not in a place where they can do that yet, then AI, I think can be a good solution to kind of help them make money like, and to say things in a clear way if they know again.
But I do think that they have to know what they stand for, like their soap boxes that they, you know, they need to know their messaging. But once they know that, I do think it could be a helpful tool.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It really is a discussion of access and privilege and if we can lower the barrier to certain things, then I'm in agreement with you that it is a good thing.
Yeah. There are other industries where I'm with you that it does feel much more I easy to discern, like, okay, yes, totally fine with outsourcing this monotonous sort of thing that I'm fine with AI doing.
Nicole: Yeah,
Katie: it [00:32:00] is just. Even as a reader, you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna read AI written books.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: Putting my money or my time behind those isn't something I wanna do as a consumer. , so that's something I think about, but it's just, it's so hard. It's such a, I know it's such a crazy topic and I'm thinking about what you said a few minutes ago about if we listen to this episode in 20 years, how.
Maybe, maybe we'll sound naive, maybe we'll sound, I don't know. But it's just the way that things are right now, I've, I've kind of had to decide like, okay, for me personally, where does this fit into my process?
Nicole: Mm-hmm. And
Katie: it doesn't. And even in editing, you know, I, I put something on my website that I don't use any AI tools in editing manuscripts, whether it's something like copy editing or giving people feedback on their story.
That everything's done by me. It's not, there's no AI touching any [00:33:00] component of someone's manuscript. , so I think it's just, I think the clarity piece of it is important as well.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, we weren't, there's no way we were going to have this conversation without talking about ai.
Katie: Exactly. It has to come up with any discussion about writing and the act of writing because , it's just, it's a fact of kind of the creative industry right now.
Nicole: Yeah. So funny that three years ago we wouldn't, we wouldn't have been talking about it.
Katie: It wasn't even on my radar.
Nicole: Yeah.
All right, well, let's go even further back in time then. Let's look at the etymology.
Yes. Let's do it. Oh, this is my favorite part. The first definition there is old English reitan, which is to score, outline, draw the figure of, and later to sit down in writing.
So it's not really writing as we know it, the etymology, it's to score, outline, or draw the figure of. That is fascinating.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's all under the umbrella of the action.
Wow. That [00:34:00] is interesting.
Nicole: Yep. I love that. And then we get to , proto Germanic, um, Reitan, which is to tear or scratch.
Katie: Ooh. There's good imagery there. Scratch, it's like a action
Nicole: uhhuh. But if you think about it, it makes so much sense because the earliest writing is QA form, ? Which is on tablets. , and it wasn't, or like you can go to hieroglyphics too, which is after Kif Formm, but it's symbols, it's drawing and symbols and scratching.
Into like, it's about the medium that's being used, right? It's not writing on paper. It's to actually score or just scratch To like make an indent. Yes.
Katie: Which to me there's a sense of, of there's almost more work, like it's more deliberate to have to carve things out, to tear things out.
There's a level of not strength, but there, there's just more intention behind [00:35:00] it. Physical intention at least of, of doing the action as opposed to taking a pen and doing something on paper or typing on a keyboard.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: When you compare those things.
Nicole: Yeah. Definitely couldn't keep up with the, your, your writing brain.
Katie: No, definitely not. But then you'd really have to be precise about everything. It would be requiring a lot more thought. Behind what you're putting in and making sure that it's the way that you want it before you carve it or tear it or scratch it. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. 'cause it's more permanent.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah. And I know some writers that's like, you know, thinking, jumping ahead to today, like that is the process for some writers where they prefer to really take their time in a draft and make sure every word is the way that they want it as it's coming out, as opposed to just rushing and then.
Going back to clean it up later?
Nicole: Well, in some of the first, uh, QA form t like scraps that they found are [00:36:00] actually, seals that they would put over. Clay vs. Like with rice on the inside or some food. Right. And they would just roll them over the seal as, as if it was like a wax seal to be like, this jar is closed and it belongs to this person or this town. Yeah. Um, and then some of the earliest records are exchanges. So like, this person got this many sheep for this much grain, and they would record it.
That was the earliest things they were writing down is like trade.
Katie: Yeah. Practical. Mm-hmm. Which makes sense. That's the kinds of things that you wanna be getting, that you wanna be documenting. Yes.
Nicole: Yeah. But stories and all that came much later. Yeah.
Poetry and,
Katie: yeah.
Nicole: Before that it was all oral. So we're back to the dictation. Have we come full circle? Yes. There we go.
Katie: We came full circle. It's perfect,
Nicole: except now we're talking to our phones instead of each other around a campfire.
Katie: I know there's a, there's not the community aspect of it. It would be really interesting though, because you would get real time [00:37:00] feedback.
You could kind of see what the response from people is, as opposed, which can be a good and bad thing. Going back to what we talked about earlier, the fear of how people are gonna perceive something. Prevent us from doing the thing. So if you're doing that with a community of people listening to you tell a story, yes you get real time feedback.
But also, I wonder if there was a level of like pressure to, that they told that they felt when they were coming up with these stories around the campfire.
Nicole: Yeah. Oh my gosh, my, my mind is like cracking open. 'cause this is so exciting 'cause it's. We opened with talking about this fear of kinda your writing being seen, but the first storytelling was much more akin to like performance acting.
Yeah. So it kind of makes sense like evolution of language wise to still have the fear around your story being witnessed. Yes. Maybe we do have this
Katie: kind of biological component that that explains this. Yeah. Why we have this. It's not just there for [00:38:00] no reason. It's not just mental. Yeah, I think we figured it out.
I think we
Nicole: cracked it well, and there is so much about when you write a book, you're expected to give readings too, ? Like there is still that performance aspect of it.
Katie: True. Mm-hmm. And especially with social media, like there's pressure to, you know, come up with content around your book and your quotes and your characters and all of that is a performance.
Even if it's organic and you know, you're not, you're being authentic. It is still a, there's a performance element to all of that.
Nicole: Yeah. , I'm, I'm finding it really fascinating, this pendulum of public, private with the word, right?
Katie: Yes.
Nicole: And I feel like it's always swinging, like there, it, it, there are both sides.
Katie: Yeah. And there's something interesting I've just found when I, so sometimes I will do, um, I love TikTok. I'm on there a lot and sometimes I, I, when I was working on a book previously, I would go live sometimes when I was doing like a writing sprint.
So I would just go [00:39:00] live. I'd say, Hey, write with me if you want. And then it was like 20 minutes and I would just be writing. And I was writing, I mean, I wasn't performing in the sense that I was pretending to write, I was actually getting words on the page, but I was aware that people were perceiving me while I was doing this thing that I would normally be doing in private.
And there was a level of separation because they couldn't see what I was writing on the screen that that focused on me and not what I was writing because I don't want anyone to see that in the beginning. But it was, it was an interesting way, it felt different. Those writing sprints felt different than when I would just do it.
Alone in the privacy of a dark room and no one else is watching, and I'm not on social media. Yeah. Well, are you a coffee shop writer? I am. My, my big thing with writing is I mix it up, so sometimes I feel like I need quiet, I need focus, and sometimes I wanna be with people and I go to coffee shop. Mm-hmm.
To mix it up. Yeah. What have you found, what's your, what's your routine do you like? I've done
Nicole: both. I've done both, but I think my preference is [00:40:00] private. I, I like to pace. I like to get up, walk around, stretch, , stare out the window. But you can do that in a coffee shop. But there's something to me about having a physical kind of private space to be in while I'm writing, to do things other than write.
Katie: Yeah,
Nicole: true. But I have done some Zoom calls , where we're all coworking or all writing. Yeah. Um, and it is helpful to have that accountability even though they can't, like I could just be sitting here, but there is something kind of nice about that, of doing it together.
Katie: I agree. I do that sometimes with writing and then sometimes with editing. Like if I'm working on a manuscript for a client, I have a, a coworking kind of. I don't know what they call it, membership, where there's different sessions throughout the day. You log on Zoom, you're with other people, you do sprints of of work and it is nice.
Yeah. So you feel like you're not alone. And there's the accountability, which I need. So it's great.
Nicole: It's all [00:41:00] about belonging and not feeling alone, all of it. Exactly.
Katie: Exactly. We need that.
Nicole: Yeah. , okay. Well we are. 10 minutes from the hour. Amazing. That kind of flew by. , but let's see. I wanna wrap up by asking you some questions
so why, why do you think our understanding of the word right is important today? Hmm.
Katie: I think it's important because there's. A communal understanding of what writing is, but then I think it's important for each writer, each person to determine what it means for them. So if you're listening to this and you are a writer, or you want to be a writer, what does this mean for you?
Are you someone who believes that it really is the action? Like we talked about the, the act of writing, that's what it means to write, or is it the umbrella term of everything that kind of goes along with the creative process of writing? Does that. Does that count as writing? I think that's something that's kind of important [00:42:00] to determine, , for every person to determine for themselves.
And I think as we get more into the future with AI and all of these capabilities for us as a society to understand what does it mean to write? Is it, human? Like, will the definition change in the future to have a human component to it? And if a machine creates something, is it no longer writing?
I think that's gonna be important in the future for us to determine as a society.
Nicole: Yeah. And that future kind of is now.
Katie: Yeah. We are already
Nicole: like talking
Katie: about it. I know. And there's, there's publishing decisions being made because of it. There's hopefully in the future gonna be some government regulation around ai.
So we're, we're in the beginning stages of it. But it's important for all art
Nicole: Yeah. To,
Katie: to kind of shift. Shape how we think about this and what, what do we want art to be more? Do we want writing to be going forward?
Nicole: Yeah. And it is, especially with AI always evolving, it can be hard to tell [00:43:00] who wrote it.
Katie: Exactly. Yeah. That's my fear.
Nicole: Yeah. There are some tells. I feel like there are phrases that I'm like, if the, if I see that phrase and someone's writing, I'm like, huh. There was some AI assistance at least, which is fine. Again, I don't wanna, like, I'm trying really hard to find this balance of like not being judgy about it.
Mm-hmm. And. Like just, I don't know. I think I'm still trying to figure out where I land.
Katie: There is definitely a, again, there, there definitely are some pieces of this that are murky. Yeah. And there are use cases where we could argue, well, it's perfectly warranted to here, but not here. And it's all, it's complicated.
It's like, how do, how do we then as a society come up with, you know, rules around this when all of these exceptions and it's hard.
Nicole: Yeah. Uh, this is definitely not a conversation. We can wrap up with a bow. Yeah, no, it's definitely
Katie: not.
Nicole: Um, well, do you feel any differently about the word write than you did at the beginning of our conversation?
Katie: I do. I feel like this was very inspiring for me as a writer [00:44:00] because particularly thinking about the etymology of the word and knowing that history, that it did used to be more open. I don't know. There's a, there's a sense of openness maybe that, that I feel about it now as opposed to kind of that push and pull image at the beginning where there's that, that love, but also that bit of resistance and frustration and all of that.
I mean, that's still there. It's always gonna be there, I think, for me, but there's a sense of openness.
Nicole: Yeah. How about
Katie: for you?
Nicole: Yeah, I, I loved learning about the etymology especially. And also, one thing I didn't mention when we were talking about it is that in the etymology dictionary it says like, words for right.
In most Indo-European languages originally meant carved scratch cut, as we already said. But then a few, , such as the gothic , they meant paint originally. Wow. So the words that now mean Right, originally meant paint. Which is interesting 'cause then it, it brings in [00:45:00] this like artistic quality, which , I do consider writing art, of course, but it just ties it more closely together with a visual art.
Katie: Yeah. And I really appreciate that because I'm someone who I, I think of myself as creative, but not artistic. Like in my mind there's a divide for me between those two things because I have no real sense of style or I can't draw, or I'm very limited in all those other things. But there is more overlap probably than, than I want to admit.
Mm-hmm. So I like that.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've created a Venn diagram. We've got painting. We've got writing, and we've got performing.
Katie: Exactly, exactly. We can kind of put a bow on that piece of it. Yeah. If we can't put a bow on the AI part of it. Yeah.
Nicole: Okay. I'm gonna ask you. One strange question , if writing had a voice, what would it sound like?
Katie: The voice would alternate, the voice would change depending on how I'm feeling that day and what I'm working [00:46:00] on. I think in most cases, the voice is an older woman's voice that's deep. That has like wisdom behind it.
Nicole: Uhhuh
Katie: and soft and, and kind of slow. Like, some days maybe the voice is a little bit more high pitched and frantic. Yes. But, but on good days it is that wise woman. Speaking kind of slowly and generally to me, I think, I think that's what the voice would be.
Nicole: Do you think it's unique to everyone? The voice?
Katie: I think so.
I imagine I've, I've, with clients I talk a lot about the personifying your inner critic and giving this, this inner critic all of these attributes and what do they sound like and what do they tell you? And so similar to that, the more positive side of it, I, I think there probably is a bit of, of.[00:47:00]
Everyone's bringing their own experience to this, and so the voice might be slightly different for everyone.
Nicole: Yeah, I love that. Personifying the inner critic. That sounds cool. That exercise. . Does it make it easier for them to like face that inner critic or to brush it away, or
Katie: It does. It does, and a lot of times it's almost, what it does is it creates this level of separation where it's like you think about this inner critic as a different person in your brain, which sounds kind of odd, maybe a little bit crazy, but.
It's much easier to just talk, to, talk back to that inner critic and then say like, okay, thank you for sharing. Like, I appreciate you voicing your opinion, but you know, I'm gonna do this anyway. And it really is just the, the voice I found at least, , of fear and self-doubt that's trying to keep us safe.
It's trying to keep, prevent us from getting hurt and all of that. So we can respond with love, but ultimately, like, thank you for sharing. You can shut up now. I'm gonna go, yeah, I'm gonna go write, I'm gonna go do this thing. Anyway,
Nicole: thank you for your concern. I'm fine. Exactly.
Katie: Your concern has been [00:48:00] noted, but you can keep going.
Nicole: Oh, I love that. , okay. Well, Katie, this has been awesome. , I appreciate your expertise and your insights so much. , for the listeners, if they wanna find you, if they have a. Book, they're, they're brewing up that they've been sitting on for 10 years, like Me. Where can they find you?
Katie: Yes. , so I'm on Instagram and TikTok are my social media platforms that I'm active on at Katie Wolf Writes. And then I also have a podcast called Your Big Creative Life that has writing tips. Probably most of it is writing tips for new writers specifically, but then also some stuff about mindset, living a creative life.
Other topics as well. So those are, those are where I'm active and I just wanna say thank you. This was so fun. , and also I think really helpful for me as a writer, just thinking about the definition , of it and bringing a, a sense of openness to it. So thank you. I
Nicole: love that. That makes me so happy. . That's why I love doing it. Yeah. , okay. And for everyone, I'm gonna put all those links that Katie just mentioned in the show notes so [00:49:00] you can find them there. Thank you, Katie. Thank you so much.
A Few Quotes:
"The writing process is loaded with moments of absolute joy—and absolute frustration." – Katie Wolf
"The fear of being seen keeps us from even doing the behind-the-scenes work of writing." – Nicole
"If you want to write a book, you want to write a book. AI can't do that for you." – Katie Wolf
"Writing is just telling the truth—over and over again, in different ways." – Nicole
Ways to Connect with Katie:
🔗 Follow Katie on Instagram & TikTok: @katiewolfwrites
🎙 Listen to Katie’s podcast, Your Big Creative Life
📚 Explore writing tips & coaching from Katie: thekatiewolf.com
The Past Lives of “Write”
Old English writan "to score, outline, draw the figure of."
Proto-Germanic *writan "tear, scratch,"
Old Saxon writan "to tear, scratch, write,"
Old Norse rita "write, scratch, outline,"
Old High German rizan "to write, scratch, tear,"
German reißen "to tear, pull, tug, sketch, draw, design").
