30. This “funnel” has holes — marketing, metaphors, and consent (with Cleoniki Kesidis)
In this episode, Nicole welcomes back her very first repeat guest (🥳), Cleoniki Kesidis, copywriter extraordinaire and fellow funnel-skeptic. The two dig into the uncomfortable origins and metaphors behind the word funnel, asking why such a common marketing term so often feels…well, kinda icky.
What starts as a conversation about email sequences and sales paths becomes a beautifully winding journey into ethical marketing, customer autonomy, and a whole lot of metaphors.
Let’s talk about the words we use in the marketing systems we build.
In This Episode, You’ll Discover…
Why “funnel” might not be the best metaphor—and a few alternates
What cows, tornadoes, and Temple Grandin have to do with marketing
The overlooked power of sequencing and why your audience deserves an exit
Why the best funnels feel more like ecosystems (and how to start designing yours)
What to do if you find yourself IN a funnel as a business owner (which you will, like, all the time)
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These transcripts are AI-Generated. Please excuse any errors. :)
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Nicole: Hi . Welcome to another episode of It's All Poetry. We're in season three and today I have my first ever repeat guest. Cleoniki Kesidis. Hi Cleo.
Cleo: Hi. I didn't realize that was the first ever repeat. That's exciting.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. I think you were maybe my third guest ever. It was before the podcast, like has the format.
It does now. This like one word. , I think we talked about ethics and marketing, if anyone wants to go [00:01:00] look that up, but yeah, you're the, you're the first one who's come backs and. As a little intro, Cleo is a copywriter and you write mostly for solopreneurs, right? And people in business.
Cleo: Yeah. Yeah. So right now I'm really focused on course creators.
So anything selling group programs, which I know you also do a lot of. So we, we work really in the same field.
Nicole: We do, and we work a lot together. Cleo and I are in a. We do a lot of coworking. Yes. Um, we're, we are in community. , and today we're going to be talking about a word that I think is very prominent in the course creator and solopreneur and service provider space.
, and that word is funnel. Yeah. , so Cleo, what role does funnel play as a word in your life and work?
Cleo: You know what I realized after you reached out and started talking about this and suggested that word, I noticed that it's a word that I avoid. Mm-hmm. When I'm talking to my clients, I almost always say sequence.
So like, we're often talking [00:02:00] about like email funnels, right? Mm-hmm. And I almost always say email sequence. And when I'm talking about funnel in like a larger sense, you know, your, your whole like marketing funnel. I tend to say your marketing system or your strategy or your customer journey. So I've sort of, I hadn't noticed what I was avoiding it, but it's a word I avoid, which is interesting.
We could dig into that more.
Nicole: Yeah, I think we definitely it. I think it's also a word that I have been uncomfortable with and avoid, but at the same time, like as you know. Clarity is so important when you're talking about what you offer. And so the fact that people know the word funnel and like,
Cleo: yeah,
Nicole: know they wanna move people towards a sale, um, I do sometimes use it, but yeah, it makes me a little uncomfortable, which I think we are going to understand a lot more why when we get into the definitions.
Um, yeah. Cleo, do you wanna walk us through like what, when people say funnel and marketing, like what do you picture, what do they mean?
Cleo: Yeah, so [00:03:00] basically, like I said, I think it's used two ways. One is an email funnel where you're talking about specifically a sequence of emails where the idea is that people are gonna read, I mean, probably they aren't gonna read all emails, but that's the idea that they're like reading along these emails in sequence and being funneled along to a certain action that you want them to take, which in my case is usually to sign up for a course, uh, for my clients, but could be.
Whatever, setting up for a call or something else. , Then there's also the idea of your marketing funnel a little more broadly, and that's, that's sort of if you've heard that, um, I know you have Nicole, but others, if that, like your top of funnel, which is when you're first reaching out to people who were brand new to you and then you're middle of the funnel, which is kind of the nurturing phase is another kind of word for that.
And then. The end of funnel, which is when you're making the ask and like converting people into being your, your clients or customers. Um, so that's another, like another way that it's used, similar, but not exactly the same as the [00:04:00] email funnel, I would say.
Nicole: Yeah, I think my first encounter with it was , because my marketing journey began at an agency and with these big companies, like they would see them in that like more like the bigger view way of like top of funnel is social media and social media ads and anywhere you can capture, we talked about this in our first episode together, , capture new leads and like.
Have them fall into your funnel ecosystem so that they, you know, get nurtured and eventually come out the bottom as a, as a big old bag of money.
Cleo: I just saw you, you just like spun your finger around for the funnel and I had never thought of it that way. Yeah, like a, like a pin rolling on thing.
That's, I had. My funnel goes like this goes down in a straight line.
Nicole: Your funnel is static.
Cleo: I mean, I think that's cool.
Nicole: I mean, the traditional like view of it, like the picture of it is static, right? It's 2D, but I always have imagined the inside of a funnel being like a tornado, [00:05:00] like it's, it doesn't feel like a friendly place to exist.
It's like your, your Dorothy and your house has been picked up and you're like being tossed around a little bit.
Cleo: Do you know what's the image that I, that pops in my mind like That's a super interesting image, and you're right, it is a violent one. This is from like, I don't know how long ago I watched a documentary about Temple Grandin.
Do you know who she is?
Nicole: , the name is ringing a bell, but No, tell me, tell everyone. She's
Cleo: autistic and she's, I think, a researcher in like animal, um, animal agriculture basically. So she's very, very well known for being this example of an autistic person who is very successful in academia. , which now we know there are a lot of those, but back in the day, like she's, she's from, you know, a few decades ago she's still alive, but back in the day that she was kind of a big thing.
So she's still kind of a sensation. They this documentary on her, . There was this whole sequence about like cows, I think she grew up on a cattle ranch and like going to the slaughterhouse and one of her major, like early inventions was a way to improve [00:06:00] the process of getting the cows to go in the slaughterhouse.
Because in the past, like they panic, like as you know, you have the big herd of cattle and as they're approaching the Clauder house, they'd smell the blood, , and they'd start, you know, panicking. And it was just like a lot of trouble for people. So what she invented basically was like her. Intuition, and this is coming from the documentary, was that like it's comforting to be kind of squeezed, which is a very autistic thing.
Like that deep pressure. Yeah. So she invented a. Like ramp that basically funnels the cows into a narrower and narrower place. So as they get closer and closer to the slaughterhouse, they end up being funneled down. Like it gets narrower to being in quite like tight quarters, which means that when they.
Smell the blood. They can't really panic. They can't go anywhere. And I think the idea was that like the tight quarters are more comforting for them. Like they feel safer. Mm-hmm. And that's the image that I have in mind when I [00:07:00] hear funnel is like all these cows being like. Organized and pushed into this like tight, narrow entrance to the slaughterhouse, which is also very violent.
Nicole: Yes. It's so funny 'cause as you're describing it, um, my brain felt conf confused on if this was like a comforting metaphor or a scary metaphor. I think ultimately scary because the end is the slaughterhouse.
Cleo: Yeah. Well, I think that's why it stuck with me so much from this documentary, which it must have been like 10 years ago that I watched this was because it was all about comforting the cows.
So that you could get them into the slaughterhouse and kill them.
Nicole: Wow. Yeah. I mean, I understand why that comes into your mind. , okay. So we have given some very, like, interesting metaphors for everyone to chew on. I'd be so curious too, if you're listening to hear like, do you feel like the funnel is a friendly device or an unfriendly device? , let us know. [00:08:00] Uh, I'm gonna share the definition with Cleo and we will see how that changes our view.
But the modern definition from Merriam Webster is. A utensil that is usually a hollow cone with a tube extending from the smaller end, and that is designed to catch and direct a downward flow.
Cleo: Hmm. Okay.
Nicole: Yes. So that that is the definition. The others are all kind of like. Something shaped like a funnel or to pass through a funnel, you know?
So the core definition is this utensil with a hollow cone designed to catch and direct a downward flow.
Cleo: Yeah. Catch and direct are definitely the words like jumping out at me there that I think are more interesting to dive in. Do I think they apply Absolutely to the marketing funnel as well? We're talking about something that catches and directs.
People's attention, people's actions.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. . So I mean, it's, it's a very clear metaphor. It's very like, it's, it feels like the right word, right? Like that's what we're doing. We're catching and directing. I [00:09:00] think that, maybe part of my problem with it, and I think this appears in, in both of our visions, whether it's the cows or it's the tornado, is that it.
It. You can't get out of a funnel like it implies this sense of loss of control. There is no exit. Like once you're in, it's a downward flow to the end, right? And so it feels very trapping.
Cleo: Yes, you are right. You're right. Yeah. Both our metaphors hit on that. And that is, you know, a cooking funnel, like that's the point.
It's to not spill stuff, it's to not let anything escape. Right? You're trying to fill up a drop spices or something, like you use a funnel so nothing escapes. , which is interesting 'cause in marketing a lot of people escape like that process from top of funnel to middle of funnel to bottom of funnel.
Is absolutely a winnowing process, and that's maybe a different word that you did not hear in marketing, but might even be more accurate, is winnowing because you're not you, you're catching people and you're [00:10:00] attempting to direct them. But the, the idea, the whole fundamental principle is that each of these levels, you're gonna have smaller and smaller number of people.
That's just, that's, that's that shape. Like you're, you're getting fewer and fewer people as you go down.
Nicole: Yeah. No, that is such a great point. It's like a funnel with holes, a leaky funnel, which sounds bad. Um, it's not bad to, , like lose people too, right?
Like when we talk about, like, even in our business, right? In a business where you're having sales calls with people, you're having discovery calls, like part of the point of that, part of the funnel is. To help know if it's a fit Both ways.
Cleo: Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I think a lot of people use the word that way.
Like I think people understand that yes, people are falling out, you know, these levels down the funnel, , for a good reason because they're not a good fit. Uh, but it's interesting that the word itself doesn't mean that
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:00] It, it implies, it applies non-consent. It does. Yeah,
Cleo: it does. Just like, I know we talked about other words, capture, convert, like mm-hmm.
All of those are not about getting consent and, or it's not even about, I know a lot of people sort of rephrase marketing as it's not about like catching people and like tricking them or forcing them or changing their mind to convince them to buy your offer. It's about finding the right people who are already.
A good match and already excited and already looking or wanting, you know, at least at some level of consciousness to engage with your offer. , and finding those people, which is again, why, I don't know, the, the picture in my mind is like, someone like panning for gold. Like that's the picture, that like alternate metaphor that's coming to me and you're like living, you're sort of shaking it and you're letting all the sand fall out and you're like, okay, what's left?
What's left? Which is interesting. I think that's, I think that's more accurate. That's what we're doing is you're scooping up a whole bunch of sand, [00:12:00] you know, posting on social media. You have a bajillion people looking at, I mean, you don't in most cases, but you have a certain number of people looking at this, and then you're, you're shaking, you're winnowing it, you're, you're using the sieve to, like, you want the sand to leave you, you don't want to catch everybody, get out of there.
If you're not the right fit, you're trying to wait and see what's the right fit. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's interesting too because that's, that's part of a sales page usually, right? Is like this is for, this is not for, yeah. And it's always good to be, I think you'd agree with me on this, Clio.
It's always good to be like super clear on like, this isn't for everybody. Definitely. Um, and that is seems like the, the winnowing that you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, but let's look at the etymology because I think we actually. I'm not gonna, oh, let's just look at it and you'll see what I mean.
You'll see what I'm about to say. So etymology, so it's from the old French Nel, which is a word from Southern French dialect such as the provincial, aia, [00:13:00] which is a word from the Southern wine trade. Mm-hmm. And in the southern wine trade, there is a filtration process in the funnel. So to achieve clarity, winemakers used like a mesh or a cloth inside the funnel to catch all the unwanted particles so that they result in like a, a more, a plus funnel, a plus funnel.
So the original funnel from this like bottling process, um, transferring wine between vessels, it has the, the sieve. . Very cool.
Cleo: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: So does it make it feel like more the right word?
Cleo: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely think that when it comes to marketing, that having that sim, having that cheese cloth is really, really key and understand that it's a good thing that the cheese cloth is working.
You want those. Particles out of the next step of your, of your customer journey, which is by preferred, um, euphemism for the funnel. [00:14:00]
Nicole: I still don't love the idea though, of thinking of people as like particles that need to be filtered out. I still, I still don't love the word funnel.
Like, do you wish we used a different metaphor than the word funnel? A different word.
Cleo: Yeah. Yeah. I do a lot of talking about like guiding people and that kind of cus like journey metaphor. Yeah. But even that isn't quite right because it's like they're just abandoning people on the wayside. If they're not, they're for you.
I don't know. Maybe they can take people off at the spots where they should be dropped off. Yeah. , but yeah, some sort of like motion like that. It feels right to me because Journey does have a sense of consent. Like you have the chance to turn around, you can decide to stop. You aren't required to keep going on the journey.
You might be encouraged and the guide is like showing you where to go, but you can decide you don't wanna go there.
Nicole: Yeah, no, I, I like that. I, [00:15:00] that's the image I think I like most is like the idea of a path. Mm-hmm. Where like there's a guide that's encouraging you to go one way or you know, like a street full of restaurants with samples out front.
That's how I see like top of funnel, right? Top of funnel is like the restaurant samples. Like, here you go. That's your lead magnet. There's your lead magnet, here's a sample. Yeah. Yeah. , and then stepping inside the restaurant of your choosing is like mid funnel, like looking at the menu, right? Like, like ordering some food, maybe?
Um, well I guess ordering food is the sale. So that's like the Yeah,
Cleo: yeah. Looking at the menu, talking like the hostess or whoever. Yeah.
Nicole: Okay. Um, but I think people are probably still gonna use the word funnel, which is fine. I just, I think it's important to consider the words we use in marketing.
Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause I think it's important to keep in mind that people can choose to leave if it's not right for them. , and so having it be more of like a. [00:16:00] An open field where they can, they can leave, instead of getting caught inside the plastic walls of a funnel, um, just feels better to me.
But we have two copywriters on the call, so why don't we talk a little bit about what makes a funnel effective or a path, what are some of the things? When you're creating a funnel for someone, Cleo, , what are some of the steps that you build into it?
Cleo: Ooh, really good question. So, I think one mistake I sometimes see people do is they focus on just one piece of it. Mm. So if you think of it like a journey, they'll, you know, in your, I don't know, I'm just pulling metaphors out of nothing here, but like paving a road or something, they'll focus really hard on just like one section of it.
And really be thinking about that, but not thinking so much about the overall flow. Like from where you start, if someone's never even heard of you all the way to, they're buying your thing and rebuying your thing and giving a great testimonial, like that whole [00:17:00] flow, , it's easy to lose track of that, especially when a lot of.
A lot of marketing programs, a lot of the way people talk about marketing, they do like kind of deep dive on one piece. You know, they'll be like, oh, here's what your lead minded should look like. Here's where your email sequence should look like. This is what you should be doing on social media, and you can get really caught up in that and trying to do that part right.
But there's no point in doing great stuff on social media. If you don't, if the next step after that is like wilderness with no path to charting through it whatsoever. Like, you know, you can have this great thing in here and if the next step is like, I don't know, I'm kind of hoping that they'll buy my thing after that.
Like you need to be guiding them along the whole thing. The entire road needs to be equally well paved. Which I think is, is an issue with some of the. The way that we split marketing up into these kind of specialties and buckets. Yeah. , as opposed to the whole picture.
Nicole: Yeah. No, that's so interesting you say that too.
Like if people, a lot of people will create lead magnets solely to get [00:18:00] leads, like solely to get people in the funnel. Yeah. But I think if we're sticking with this idea of a, you know, traditional French wine funnel that has hopefully multiple seeds, right? Like each step should have a seed. Yeah. So even the lead magnet, it should have a purpose like that ultimately leads people to the final thing that they're selling, right?
Um, absolutely. Yeah. So it's not just like. Here's a free thing. Get on my list, and then you just like have a big old list that you're paying ConvertKit. You don't wanna pay ConvertKit for 3000 people on your list. If not all those people are likely to buy from you. Mm-hmm. Um. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, sometimes I encounter clients who have really massive lists, , but they're not always the right people to buy.
Cleo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which comes from, I mean, another way to think of it is those like vanity metrics, right? That we're always warned about. Like, and I, I love metrics and I work a lot with my clients on like, okay, let's look at the data. But it's really important to remember that. When we [00:19:00] talk about like optimizing your business and looking at the data and like that kind of attitude towards marketing, it's not about making every single number as high as it can possibly be.
Mm-hmm. Because then you're just spending time focusing on trying to get more impressions on your social media posts or more comments or more signups to your newsletter. And you don't wanna be optimizing, like you don't need maximizing the signups to your newsletter. You don't need maximizing the signups of really good potential clients who are a really good fit, which is different than maximizing the signups.
, and that requires you to have that bigger picture. I. View, like what is the point of having people on my newsletter? It's not about just like getting more people on my list, like what is the overall purpose of this? , and I think maybe, I don't know, maybe that's just not a way that it's as easy for people to think, like maybe we just like to kind of focus in on one thing and optimize that one number versus, juggling all these different moving parts in our minds.
Nicole: Yeah. Well it does feel like conflating like elementary school [00:20:00] popularity with like the building a business. , like I think sometimes like you can think like you just want a big audience, , but if that's not ultimately driving revenue, and it's a business where the goal is revenue.
Then, then that might not be the best strategy. , do you work with clients to create lead magnets all ever? I don't know if that's part of your
Cleo: Yeah, definitely sometimes, but not always. And you're totally right that it can be a big issue if the lead magnet that they already have that they want is just not quite right.
Mm-hmm. For the next step. Like that's. Yeah, that's a, I mean, that's a tricky ethical issue as a copywriter, right? Because do you refuse that project? Do you say like, no, this isn't gonna work well 'cause , this isn't correct. Like, this isn't strategically a good idea. Um, there's nothing I can do to fix it.
, if you won't re redo your lead magnet, um, or do you just do the best you can with what they have and you know, it's ultimately it's their decision.
Nicole: Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah.
Um, , say you're working with a client who like, doesn't have a lead magnet yet and is asked for your advice on how to create a good one that ladders up to their, , the final product they're selling. Do you have any advice for that?
Cleo: Yeah, absolutely.
So, kind of the traditional, the traditional setup would be to teach someone a small thing, like look at your main program. Pick out some small piece of it. Maybe it's like step one or maybe whatever, and like teach that. So you're basically delivering your method or your whatever it is, but just a tiny fraction of it, a a little bite of it.
And then the idea is that they're gonna want more. , so you're giving them an example of what working with you could look like. , the alternate view, which I think is a little bit more recent, is that you don't wanna be teaching. On your lead magnets, which, you know, whether they're webinars or eBooks or whatever they are, because that's gonna lead people to try to DIY it a little bit more.
It [00:22:00] might attract people who are a little bit more DIY focused versus people who are know, I wanna hire someone to help me or do this for me, or whatever it is. . So there are a lot of arguments against that. And in that case, what it's great to focus on is that idea of that like paradigm shift, like having a really changing the way they think so that they feel like they've gotten a lot out of it.
You, they being the client's audience, they've gotten a lot out of it because they've had this like aha moment. But you haven't actually like taught them how to do. The thing that you want them to pay you to teach them how to do or to do for them. So those are kind of two different directions.
Mm-hmm. And I would say that it's gonna depend on the industry and what you feel comfortable with and what the audience expects, which one of those directions you wanna go in. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. I think as a service provider, . I don't mind if [00:23:00] people can DIY from my freebies because it, it just means that they are maybe not at the stage where they're ready to hire out and I still want them to be successful.
Right. But I think if the end product is a teaching thing, like it is a course, then you don't really want them to DIY from your freebie because you want them to DIY from your course. Yeah. You know? So . To me that's, that's like two different examples of, of ways it would be, but I do think that the important thing that you said is that in a lead magnet, there has to be some kind of quick win, whether it's an aha moment or a success from DIYing, like that they're able to see like, oh, from this person I can do stuff.
I can accomplish stuff with this person and their business. Yeah. And I've seen an example of how I can accomplish that, and therefore I know that I can accomplish more.
Cleo: Yeah, . What you wanna create is that, like, that transformation ultimately, like they should feel differently coming out of it than they did.
They should feel more excited, more inspired, more confident, or [00:24:00] have like a different view on stuff, or have a different feeling than they did when they first started, , reading it. But you wanna avoid something where they're just like, oh, okay, cool. Like that. That's fine. That was useful. It should be something that, that sparks a new, new thoughts in their mind, whether you're teaching them or not.
You want them to come out being like, oh my gosh, that, that's different like that. Oh, I, I never thought of it that way. Or like, I didn't realize it could work like that. . That's what's gonna get people excited about going the next step on the journey or the next level of the funnel with you. Yeah,
Nicole: yeah.
No, I love the way you said that. Like, get them excited. I think that that is important. Mm-hmm. And one other thing I wanna say on that is that, , lead magnets should be consumable if they're too complicated and people don't watch it, if it's a video or read it, if it's an ebook, like if they don't consume it, they're not going to get the aha or the excitement that you want them to get.
Cleo: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, it's
Cleo: good. Which is a tricky balance [00:25:00] too. 'cause there's, it's one of those things that's a little bit counterintuitive because I think there's idea of like, well if I give them tons of stuff and if it's awesome and I really like, they're gonna be more interested. Yeah. But that only works if they do it.
Like I know, I think it's like, is it James Wedmore who argues to like, have these really, really deluxe like lead magnet mini courses, Uhhuh? Um, I think so. I might have that, I might have the wrong person mixed up. But that sort of, that methodology is like really blow them away. Like give them something so amazing for free.
Or you know, some people will do it like a small, a very low priced offer at the beginning. Yeah. That's just so incredibly amazing that they're like, wow, what must the paid thing be like? It must be incredible. That can work. But in that case, you have to be thinking of. How are you gonna keep them engaged through that, which is an entirely different level of that journey, right?
That becomes an entire other step of, okay, instead of just being like, I get them to the lead magnet, then I get them from the lead magnet to [00:26:00] the email sequence. I get them to the lead magnet, then I have to get them through the lead magnet. That was not another entire step on the journey that you have to do.
Well, 'cause you want. Well, most people who get the lead magnet to come out on the other side of having actually engaged with it, , in order for that whole, I blew them away with how great my free content was, idea to work. And then you move on to the next step in that, in that path. , and I think that's something that sometimes people miss when they, when they do these, when they, when they attempt to go with that strategy.
Nicole: Yeah. Are we moving on to the mid funnel now? I think we are. So we're mid funnel, so people have consumed your lead magnet, they've come in, they've consumed it. , what are some steps that people, you think people need to consider in the middle of the, in the middle of the funnel before the person has bought?
Cleo: This is gonna depend a lot on what the price jump is. Mm. , so if you're. Something for free, and then your offer is like a hundred dollars [00:27:00] or $200. You can have a pretty short journey, a pretty short path, , in my opinion. I'm interested to hear what you think about Nicole, if you are offering something for free.
And then your thing is $6,000. You are gonna need a lot more in there. I think sometimes more than people realize. Which again comes to that focus issue. There can be a lot of focus on like. Having an awesome web webinar and selling from the stage and like all this stuff, but people aren't gonna go from that webinar to paying you $6,000 or very rarely.
There's gonna be a lot more steps in the middle there. And again, if you add in like a low priced offer, which some people do as part of their strategy, that's again like what's the price jump from the free to the low price? From the low price to the, to the high price? Like. How, how big of a leap are you asking them to make?
Monetarily is gonna change how much stuff you need in that journey.
Nicole: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. I'm on someone, I'm in a funnel right now of someone I admire, , and I've [00:28:00] purchased things from before and they are selling a very high ticket product. . Like, I think around like the 12 K mark, right?
It's a coaching container, , and they're sending three emails a day . So it's a, it's a lot, but it's a high ticket. And so like it needs, you need those trust points. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. You absolutely need to build that trust. And I think especially. In 2025 when we're recording this, when people have like a lot of courses they haven't finished, um, I know I have like a whole bookmark folder for it of course.
As I like come back here someday, Nicole? , no, I have, I have some expensive ones that I never finished. Uh, but like I think people, especially after that, like need. The past five years have been very like course heavy right. For us on the internet. Yeah. So I think people need more of those trust points than they did in the past.
Are you seeing that as well? Like especially in the past year or so?
Cleo: Yeah, and what leaps out to me, just to get back to [00:29:00] that idea of the funnel and my issues with that.
Nicole: Yeah.
Cleo: Is sort of the idea of a funnel is then after you've passed through that last step of the funnel and you buy the product like you're done.
Yeah. You pass through the funnel. , and I think that can leave people. Feeling like they kinda get people in their program and they're done. And I really disagree with that. And I definitely feel, that's why I often phrase it as like, I work with people who have group programs, not courses, because there should be effort put in to get people through that.
. Partially because I don't think it's fair to sell someone on this transformation and to not give them the accountability and structure and encouragement that basically 100% of us need to actually get through something. , if what you're, what you're teaching them is actually transformative and substantial, it's gonna take some time and some effort to get through it and absorb it and learn it.
Learning isn't passive. It's, it takes effort. . Which means I think that you owe it to them as part of your program [00:30:00] to be teaching. Not just dumping doesn't necessarily mean that has to be live. But if you're not gonna have any live component at all, like any face-to-face time with you, you need to put some serious time into thinking of the, of the pedagogy of your course.
, and when we focus really hard on funnel, we're again just focusing in on like just that marketing section of getting people in as opposed to that entire journey of like. Is the experience actually successful? Are they finishing the course and then going on to do well? Are they engaging with you again and perhaps being a re-put buyer or being a great referral person?
Like that entire I. Process, , versus, okay, I got them in. They're done. I got them in, they're done. , which I think is sometimes what people think about when they think course. And that's, I mean, that's a whole other word we can talk about. Like, that's not what I mean when I think course I'm thinking like, I don't know, like a college course.
Like, no, you're gonna be teaching, you're gonna be showing up, you're gonna be working with them. There's gonna be homework like. [00:31:00] This is not just abandoning them. Yeah. To bookmark it and leave it in their bookmark folder for who knows how long.
Nicole: Yeah. No, I think that's so important what you're saying. Like I think in.
Courses used to be able to sell as just like a library of videos. And I don't think that that's working as well anymore. Um, people need to know. People worry, but they're
Cleo: not gonna watch.
Nicole: Yeah. They, they self, self trust between you and the person. Selling is important, but there's also self trust that I think has been, damaged a bit, but, but also like.
Of course we need help. Of course, we need someone to like, keep us accountable and to go through this stuff with us. It's not, that we did anything wrong, but we thought we could, we thought we could just get this library of stuff and just watch it. , yeah.
Cleo: And even just is just watching videos really gonna teach you anything.
I mean that we're like getting it. Can you really like learn something that's gonna change your life and deliver transformation? If you're just sitting there passively watching videos, how [00:32:00] much are you paying attention? Are you watching dishes at the same time? Like, we could do that always.
Nicole: I always want, I, I tend to be like a replay person because I like to be able to multitask. Yeah. Or if I show up live, they're gonna call on me. Uh, so I get it. , But yeah. But it's important to like. Know that they're gonna check in with you or that you're gonna have homework or something like that. It, like you said, it doesn't have to be a live cohort for it to be engaging.
Cleo: No, it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to. There's so many interesting things out there, and I. Just love what I, what I love to see in the course space is people really being creative with that format and thinking about all sorts of different ways to do that. Different kinds of programs, different kinds of community, different kinds of event aspects.
, I personally am like an enormous fan of the idea of students learning from each other. That comes back to like my whole philosophy of education in general. I think kids should be matched up a lot [00:33:00] more with older children. , there's some really interesting research that kids can learn better certain skills from older children than they can from adults because of that smaller skill gap.
Like they're closer in skill level. , and I think that absolutely applies to adult learning as well, that we can really benefit from engaging with people who are further on. So I actually really. Don't like the idea of like having a live cohort and marching everyone through at the same time. I think it's really beneficial to be more creative about that.
How can you mix and match? How can you have your students interacting? How can you have like, just so many interesting different ways to do it. , and I think that that's what the course creation space and the group program space in the, I mean, adult learning space is what we could call it. Is really, is really craving right now.
And what's getting success is do something creative. Do something that's not just a video library, like take me on a different kind of journey. '
Nicole: yeah. Oh, and this is making me like. Again, like question the, the [00:34:00] funnel, because the funnel, it comes to a point, like it comes to an end. And like what you are saying and what we're talking about now is that it doesn't end like, so this kind of inverted triangle format, which has to come to an end based on the laws of geometry.
Um, like it must. It must come to it. Well, I guess, yeah, you're right. It can. It can X and keep going. Lives that are not
Cleo: parallel must cross. Yeah.
Nicole: It crosses, but then keeps going. It becomes a regular triangle. An hourglass now. Yeah. For those who are listening, because I don't share the video, you can't see us like doing all of these things with our hands.
But yeah, I mean, maybe we don't have to overcomplicate what we now want the funnel to be. It can simply be like, now it's an hourglass that like, hey, here's the bottom of the hourglass, is that container of your group, program, course product, whatever it is. And it's just a continuation of the whole thing.
I still, I'm trying to come to a conclusion on, if we [00:35:00] should still use the word funnel or not.
Cleo: Go ahead. Go ahead. I, like I mentioned in the beginning, I think I'd already, without thinking about it, decided I didn't wanna use it, which is, yeah.
Wasn't like a conscious decision, but I think it is one that just has that little aura of like Yeah. Non a force. A force around it.
Nicole: Do you have clients that use it though? Um, I.
Cleo: Not excessively.
Nicole: Mm.
Cleo: Yeah. We talk more about like journey and sequence and, and structure. I talk a lot about like structures and systems.
Hmm. Which is a different idea too. Like the metaphor of like a machine or like some kind of structure, like assembly line kind of flow.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I'm wondering if like, my use of it is from like an over. The carryover from my time at agencies. Mm-hmm. That's why I'm asking you that. Like, in the course creative space, is it used less than I think it is.
I
Cleo: don't know. . I think that top of funnel [00:36:00] bottom, like middle funnel, bottom funnel, I think that's very, very commonly used. I still, I see people saying that a lot. Yeah. But apart from that, I don't see funnel being talked about people like. I dunno. I dunno they use it, but not that much in my opinion.
Nicole: Yeah. Maybe we've collectively, subconsciously decided not to use it. . I, I think my, I like ecosystem or journey, though. Sometimes I cringe a little bit when we use too much like natural word language for marketing things, it feels a little forced or weird. , but I like the idea of having a marketing ecosystem that like still has stages but like feeds into each other and sustains each other, , at each stage.
And like the idea, like you've said of. Being able to move back and forth. Like a lead can go from warm to hot, to warm, to cold, to hot, to warm. You know, like this idea that they can jump around, I think is, , is important. Like let them keep existing because some people take longer to make decisions than others just naturally.
Mm-hmm. As like part of their [00:37:00] personality. And so I think it's important to make room for that and allow for that.
Cleo: Yeah. Yeah. Which being too structured can definitely make it harder for people to. Have that,
Nicole: uh, do you use funnels when you cook?
Cleo: I do use funnels to make sure when I'm transferring stuff, I do, I do, I do a lot of like buying food in bulk. Oh. And then needing to transfer it to smaller containers, which is. You know, it's always like, oh, I don't need a funnel. But you do. You do.
Nicole: I don't think I have one.
Really? Yeah. I don't think I have one in my kitchen, which is why I asked. I feel like I have to makeshift them.
Cleo: I definitely have a couple. I was into canning for a while, and you definitely need a proper canning funnel if you want to get your, get your stuff into your jars.
Nicole: Um, okay. Well, any final advice for someone who might be building like a, um, ecosystem, whatever we wanna call it, whatever we're calling it.
Where [00:38:00] would you start? Where would you start? Where would you tell 'em to begin? When they're fi figuring out their structure?
Cleo: Begin with the whole journey. Like back up a step further than wherever you've been and make sure that you have that entire picture start to finish in mind. Do not get like hyperfocused pulled in on one little piece and then get frustrated.
That little piece isn't working. 'cause it can't work if the rest of it isn't. Build up as well. Build them up equally.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And I, I often tell people too, to start with the end. Like, if you know what you're selling at the end, it's easier to figure out all the rest of it, right? Because then you wanna ask yourself all these questions, like, what are the things that people need to know?
Before they're willing to spend money on this. Like what are the things, what objections are they gonna have? What misconceptions do they already have? What do they want? What is their dream? , and you can't really know the answers to those questions until you know what it is that you have at the end.
Like I said, I think some people will [00:39:00] create the lead magnet before they even really know what they're selling.
Cleo: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't recommend that, for sure. For sure. Though, I will also say that like. I think there's a, a myth, especially in the content creator idea that this is gonna be easy and that you can just kind of put something together and it's gonna work.
I just saw recently, oh my gosh, it drove me crazy. Somebody was on online was saying, not something I know, but was saying that she'd been laid off and was like needing to, to make money quickly, and someone suggested like, oh, make a course and pre-sell it. I'm like, guys, that is not a good way to make something quickly.
Just make money quickly if you, especially if you don't have an audience, like that is, no, this is not a get rich quick scheme. Yeah. So I would say that. You wanna approach it with a sense of experimentation, which is kind of why I like the idea of a machine. Like that's a metaphor that I really like. 'cause [00:40:00] you're tinkering, you're inventing something, you're, you're, you're, you're shifting back, well what if I put this here?
What if I put that here? What if I tweak this? What if I change that? What if I swap stuff out? I think that that's a lot better of an idea that's just more dynamic machinery that you're inventing and experimenting on. I think there's a lot better metaphor for your marketing than a funnel, which is a pretty static structure.
Like when you build a funnel, that's it, right? , so yeah, I would encourage you to think less about like, I need to pick up my lead magnet. I need to be the perfect one, and I need to have this thing, I need to be there. I need to have all these steps and follow the, the guidelines that so and so said because so and so said that this is all the stuff you need.
, like great, like start with the structure if that's helpful, but be willing to just. Experiment and see what happens and tweak and, and be inventive. , you're gonna get a lot farther than if you try to do it all right, all at once from the get go and then expect it to work. Immediately.
Nicole: Yeah. Your funnel does not need to have [00:41:00] perfect angles.
Cleo: No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Your, your marketing system is gonna be unique to you and your audience. Mm-hmm. So even though you can learn a lot from other people and experts and coaches and hiring people at all these other things, you can do super valuable. But at the end of the day, you have to figure out what works for your people, which you can only figure out by actually getting out there and experimenting.
Nicole: Yeah,
Cleo: with your thing.
Nicole: Yeah. That brings up an important point too of,
I've definitely fallen into the trap before where I'm working on something for my business. Right. Like I, I. I am excited about something. I have a new idea. I'm, I'm building my email funnel, you know, like I, I'm doing my thing and then I'll open Instagram for a second and I'll see someone give a piece of advice and I'll suddenly question everything that I'm doing.
I don't know if that happens to you. It, it's happens to me like a lot. Like I have to kind of keep myself focused 'cause I can be so easily distracted. , which I know I'm kind of going on a. Tangent. That doesn't have [00:42:00] a lot to do with the word funnel, but I am curious if like that's something you've encountered or you've seen clients encounter.
Cleo: Yeah, absolutely. And there's so much conflicting advice out there around marketing for every person saying you should sell high ticket, there's another person saying sell like a small offer to just get people in.
Like for everyone saying you shouldn't teach. There's another person saying, no, you should teach like all these things. And I think. The reason for that isn't that like marketing is made up and there's no way to know what works. And it isn't that like people are just saying nonsense, just to be contrary.
It's because different things work for different businesses. Yeah. And people are sharing what's worked for them or their clients. And that might work for you, but it also might not. So you have to stop and think like, okay, like who is this for? Is this the right strategy for me or not? Which is a little bit, you know, funneling yourself when you are in the funnel and someone's giving you advice with the, often [00:43:00] the idea of trying to get you to buy their program or coaching or whatever.
Yeah. Remember that the funnel has sinned and you are allowed to decide. I'm not going, I'm not going through the sieve to the next level. This is not right for me. I just qualify myself.
Nicole: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that you went there. We are going meta recognize that you are in a funnel. Mm-hmm. Like just yourself to eyes.
Cleo: Yes. Yeah. Oh
Nicole: yeah. None of this is real.
Cleo: Absolutely. And that's something, I don't know if you found this, but I think that people who aren't entrepreneurs are in funnels less often. Yes, they definitely can be. 'cause there are people selling courses and things that are not for entrepreneurs, obviously. , but that's a little bit more rare. But when you're an entrepreneur, you earn funnels nonstop.
Nonstop [00:44:00] because we don't go to school and learn how to be entrepreneurs and then march through our careers doing that. We're learning all the time, which means we're constantly being exposed to people who are offering to teach us things, which is great. But be aware that just because you took the first step into the funnel, you don't have to go all the way to the slaughterhouse.
You don't have to turn around if you wanna turn around. And it's okay.
Nicole: Oh my God. It's true. When you're an entrepreneur, you are always in a funnel. Like someone who's searching for an herbalism class. There might not be. Funnels all the time. No.
Cleo: Like, it may, they won't even realize what's happening in most cases.
Nicole: But those B2B B2B funnels, the funnels that are meant for funnel builders.
Cleo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Their own funnels for funnel builders. They're all courses about making courses. Like there's all this stuff and there's so many, there's so many pieces of, you know, very important wisdom out there. But, , it's not all [00:45:00] for you.
And that it's not, that it's wrong and that it doesn't, someone's lying or whatever. I mean, I'm sure there are people out there lying, but that's a different thing. Like yeah, that person can be absolutely telling the truth and it worked great for them, but that doesn't mean that's right for you.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
And, and the, I wanna offer one final piece of advice on that, and that is like, anything can work if you're consistent and stick with it.
Cleo: Hmm.
Nicole: So I do believe that like whether you're doing a, , like a small paid offer or you're doing a webinar or you're doing, I think a lot of those, like you said, it depends on the business for one, but for two, like lots of things that don't work the first time around.
If you stick with it and you try again, it'll start to work more and more. Yeah. And I'm giving that advice to myself, most of all. 'cause I am very famous within, within my brain, Nicole, like I am famous to myself for like starting a strategy and like thinking like, oh, this didn't work After trying it once.
Um, yeah,
Cleo: that's why I like the tinkering inventing idea. [00:46:00] Like if you were trying to invent a machine, you wouldn't expect that your first prototype would work. Yeah. Because that's not how, that's that. You wouldn't expect that, that would be crazy. Um, so it's normal. Like you're, you're, you're tinkering and you, you kind of choose what you wanna work on and then keep tinkering until you figure out what pieces you need, , to make your thing work.
Nicole: Yeah. And it's gonna end up being like this beautiful Frankenstein thing. It's not going to be a perfect, absolutely little funnel.
Cleo: Absolutely. Yeah.
Nicole: Oh, cool. I love where this went. I love that we made it to that place. Amazing. Well, we're reaching the hour already. That kind of blew by. So, Cleo, if someone wants to work with you, if they want you to help them build their funnel or write their emails or , do any of that, where can they find you?
Cleo: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm most active on LinkedIn. I have an Instagram, but it's a lot less active, so you can check me out there. My website is CEK [00:47:00] copywriting, and actually, if you're interested in trying out something, uh, that's gonna be extra fun in May. From May 27 to 29, I'm hosting a three day. Workshop for course creators.
It's called Course Correction Fix. The three Biggest Mistakes That Stop Great Courses From Selling. So this is you, if you have an awesome course and you've got some students that are super happy with it, but you're just running, getting as many people in there as you know you deserve to have. So we're gonna be tackling the three biggest mistakes and and blocks that I see stopping great courses from getting the success they deserve.
If you're interested in that, you can check that out and otherwise come say hi on LinkedIn. That's where I'm usually hanging out.
Nicole: I love, you're so good at LinkedIn. It's amazing. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And definitely check out the course everyone, 'cause Cleo is super pro. We've been, we've been like working adjacent to each other for years. Yeah. [00:48:00] So long Basically
Cleo: the beginning, almost. Yeah. Yeah,
Nicole: basically the beginning. So since like 20, I don't even know.
2020. 2021. Anyway, we've known each other a long time. Cleo's amazing
Cleo: yeah. Cool.
Nicole: And so
Cleo: are you Nicole. So thank you so much for bringing me on here. Absolutely love talking about this stuff with you because you have such insightful things to share.
Nicole: Thank you, Cleo. Um, alright.
Thanks Cleo so much and maybe we'll have to have a third one sometime soon. Yeah. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for listening to It's All Poetry. You have no Idea what it means to me to have you here. This podcast is recorded and produced and edited by yours truly. I've had to learn a lot of tech. Y'all. You can find all the resources and links from this episode in the show notes at nicolecopy.com/it's all poetry.
The music you hear throughout is by Jack Pierce. And if you enjoyed this episode, there is a bunch of other [00:49:00] stuff that you might want to check out from my weekly newsletter with marketing prompts to one-on-one copy coaching for your business, to branding guidance, uh, and more things that I'm not even aware of at the time of this recording because I add stuff all the time.
But it's all right there at nicolecopy.com. Thanks again for loving words with me. I'll see you next time.
A Few Quotes:
“It doesn’t feel like a friendly place to exist. It’s like you’re Dorothy and your house has been picked up and you’re being tossed around inside a tornado.”
“You want the sand to leave. You’re not trying to catch everybody.”
“When we talk about optimizing, it’s not about making every number as high as it can go.”
“When you’re an entrepreneur, you are always in a funnel.”
Ways to Connect with Cleo:
Grab Cleo's free resource: Everything You Need to Sell Your Evergreen Course Consistently at cekcopywriting.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cleonikikesidis (she’s so good here)
Some alternate metaphors for the customer journey (as mentioned in this episode! (Not all equal lol)).
A tornado
Panning for gold
A wine funnel with a sieve (the etymological origin)
Temple Grandin’s cattle chute
Panning for gold
A guide on a journey
A street full of restaurants offering samples
A menu
An ecosystem
A machine you’re inventing or tinkering with
An hourglass
Frankenstein, the Monster
