25: "Trust" is a basket of grapes (with Taylor Lecours)
So how is trust like a basket of grapes? Guess you have to listen to find out. :)
In this episode, Nicole sits down with Taylor LeCours, a fellow copywriter and brand strategist, to explore the word "trust" - diving deep into its meanings, etymology, and implications for both business and personal relationships. You’ll also get some impromptu (and very valuable!) copywriting lessons!
Tune in to learn…
How trust and hope are intertwined, and why both are essential? (up for debate!)
Why the etymology of "trust" feels more like an ingredients list than a progression.
Why trust points are becoming increasingly important in marketing.
How returning things you don't want builds your self-trust!
The delicate balance of building trust ethically in copywriting
Tune in to the latest episode:
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Note: Transcripts are AI generated. Please excuse any errors! :)
Nicole: [00:00:00] Oh hello, welcome to It's All Poetry, where in each episode we talk about one word, in depth, with one guest. We will bring you surprising word histories, etymologies, our real life stories about words, thoughts on the way we use those words to connect with each other, yeah, basically it's a podcast about words.
My name is Nicole Cloutier, and I am a copywriter, poet, and general word nerd, and I can't wait to dive into this with y'all, so let's get started.
So we have two copywriters in the zoom room today. Hi Taylor. Hi.
Taylor: How are you? I'm good. I'm genuinely like I was saying before we started this call, I'm so excited to talk about this, especially in terms of like the word that we're going to be talking about today. I think two copywriters and two probably very different perspectives, or maybe even just like.
Nuances of the same expec , perce like, perceptions are gonna be just so [00:01:00] fascinating.
Nicole: And it's so timely to talk about this too, alright, so I have Taylor LaCour on the phone with me today in the Zoom room, , and Taylor is also a copywriter and also has a fantastic Instagram presence. I was
stalking you a
Nicole: little bit before this and I like avoid, I avoid Instagram. So it's so impressive to see you doing it so well.
And so. Like, oh, it just feels gosh, I'm not finding the words to say this, but it like feels really good, which I think a lot of people don't accomplish, but you're like online presence feels really like warm and good. Um,
Taylor: you, that is actually like, I don't want to take you off on maybe what you're going to say, but just as a quick thought to that, that is very appreciated because I don't always feel that way.
And this is going to be perfect kind of going into what we're talking about today, but I feel like once I sort of like. Just through caution to the wind, I tried to experiment with different things and just like allow myself to just do different [00:02:00] things. That's kind of where you could feel that presence, that shi like literally like an energetic shift.
So I really appreciate that. I've worked tirelessly on it and It can be very challenging to, to feel good about it, especially as creative. So thank you so much.
Nicole: No, I was literally, I was scrolling. , on my browser, cause I took it off my phone and I was like, wow, should I, should I be trying this again?
Like Taylor makes it look so good. Maybe I should be back on Instagram, but I feel like, yeah, you own it. You also host. copy co working sessions, which are super cool. Um, and I also took your brand archetype quiz today.
Taylor: Yes. Yes. I launched it yesterday. , like kind of soft launched it and then launched it earlier today. , and it was such a labor of love, like genuinely having to kind of think about these six archetypes and then have different creative practices sent to the participant or like someone who took the quiz.
To do was a labor of love, but [00:03:00] my goodness, it was so fun. And it's actually really cool to see that people are really aligned with what they get. So do you find that based on your archetype, that like it resonated? It
Nicole: was really funny because I don't consider myself life of the party. Like not me, but my brand, perhaps.
So I'm like, I'm like, Oh, interesting. Cause I, I'm like a, I'm a pretty quiet person like at parties. Like I'm not going to go up and like make friends with everybody. Like I'm definitely not going to be that person. But I think. in my business, perhaps I have been a little more that way. Like I've been very like proactive in reaching out to people and like setting up lots of meetings.
And um, so yeah, I'm going to dig into it a little more. I think it's a great, great little, I think everyone should go take it. I don't usually do plugs up front, but everyone should go take Taylor's archetype
Taylor: quiz. It's awesome. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I like, even just now thinking about You having a podcast just like, yeah, being able to be [00:04:00] so easygoing with people.
That's kind of what I envisioned as the life of the party. Just being able to inspire people to show up as they are. And I feel like as a podcast host, you do that already so beautifully. Like I already feel so comfortable and I'm usually very nervous.
Nicole: Oh, thank you. That means a lot. Plus the gift you used for it is Leslie Knope and I love Leslie Knope.
We love Leslie Knope
Taylor: around here.
Nicole: Uh, oh my gosh. Okay. So I think we should tell everyone what word we're talking about. Yes. Before we go down all these rabbit holes that I know we're going to go down. So the word that Taylor and I are talking about today is trust. Which I think is incredibly relevant, , for the work we do for copywriting.
, but also, and Taylor, I don't know if you're seeing this too, but a lot of my clients, cause most of my clients are, , like entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, small businesses, and I'm like, and of course creators, right? So lots of online businesses. Yeah. And I think that trust, like from [00:05:00] now, as opposed to 2020, when people were like big on courses, like trust has become , Even more important as like part of the
Taylor: funnel.
Nicole: Are you seeing that as
Taylor: well? Oh, yeah, and especially like truly I mean i'm a millennial so i'm not a gen z er even though I definitely appreciate the like the boldness of a gen z type personality, but what you're I think seeing and what i'm seeing as well is the the landscape of what we choose to interact with is very different or it's like starting to be very different, especially coming off of a pandemic where literally everything was online.
And you're, I think you're so right. So on point in terms of how trust in ourselves, in what we purchase, in what we, , consume is. Starting to really shift, for sure.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think we've all bought so many online offers at this point. I have a ton of courses I haven't finished. Like, a lot. And so it makes me a bit more discerning when I think about, like, buying another one.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Nicole: So I think, like, [00:06:00] what I've been saying to my audience is, like, building in trust points I think is really, really important. And the people that are doing that I don't think will, , see as much of a decline as people who don't. So, that's your sign to do it if you're listening.
Taylor: I love that.
What is, can I, can I ask, what does a trust point look like to you?
Nicole: Yeah, I think it's different with every business, but I think like one of the things that people are particularly wary of are, , courses that are simply a library of. , with no, like it doesn't have to be one on one, but like coaching sessions are one to many, like some kind of connection with the, with the guru, right?
Like with the, with the person who's leading the thing, the expert. , so I think in copy, like being clear about, , this is that kind of access that you will have to me, or this is, you know, The yeah, the way that I address helping make sure that you finish this thing.
Like, I'm not going to abandon you. You're not just going to buy this and I'm going to leave you like, so having that in your copy. And also as a [00:07:00] service provider for myself, I found that, giving people more opportunities to get like a sample of my work. So like smaller, because usually most of my clients are pretty big ticket.
Right. So,
Taylor: yeah.
Nicole: It's, it's like, well, they're not going to just jump into that. , before it was easier to be honest, like to be transparent, like it was easier to get people to jump into big tickets stuff. Cause they knew they needed it. They had, they felt sure that their thing would work if they had the right copy.
But I think with everyone seeing sales slow, they're less sure that the thing will work if they have the right copy. And, , so I've just been trying to also give people more like, Samples of working with me as I communicate with
Taylor: them.
Nicole: Yeah,
Taylor: that's amazing. And it really is a duty. Like I personally, like I'm sure we'll get into this, but I feel like as copywriters, as, as, as people, as creative people who are also service providers, who are pretty much like writing words in order to help you sell something or to like sell something yourself.
[00:08:00] Like that's kind of a very, almost like one way to say something very simple way. But I feel like it's a. It's my duty as a copywriter to be able to, you know, to incite that trust in, in yourself as a service provider, but very much also in the person that you're speaking to. So like I said, I'm sure we're going to get into it, but I feel like that was, I just, I wanted to, I wanted to pick your brain on that, um, which I, yeah, I just, I think it's very cool.
I love the idea of the trust points. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Nicole: , okay.
So, the word trust. Let's get into it. Taylor, do you have any? personal connection with the, with the word today.
Taylor: I do. So I would say, and I'm going to try to be very brief, I would say trust is very much a huge value. Trust and more specifically self trust are a huge, , value and kind of pillar of my business.
So really, I not only write copy for people, but a big part of what I'm, you know, seeing a [00:09:00] gap in is a copywriting service or somebody. Who loves words who can like talk about a sales page how much I love a sales page all day being able to Help other creative people who don't feel confident in writing be able to actually trust their writing capabilities and also in doing so trust their creativity and so Kind of maybe reversing that I think part of the personal, , experience, personal story that I have with trust is actually the lack of it.
And
Taylor: for many years, I was in, you know, I was in, , jobs that really didn't offer me the opportunity to trust. I was, I did a bachelor's degree in English literature and I did a master's degree in English literature. And typically a lot of people would just tell me, this is your one half. Like take what you can get because you know, you're not gonna make you're not gonna do [00:10:00] much as an english major And I think I was kind of told and sold and fed the idea that like I couldn't trust myself Meanwhile, I had this idea of starting something, you know for myself starting a business for myself doing things my own way Nudging me for years, but I didn't understand what that meant.
I didn't ever feel like I could I could, , you know, respond to that and really be able to kind of trust that. So in my personal experience of trust, it wasn't until I took the leap, I left my job and I did something completely unknown, completely off the beaten path, that I started to realize what was actually missing.
So I couldn't really, I couldn't, I didn't know it at the time, but It's just starting to now like, I think my business actually is being able to reclaim, reclaim my, my trust in myself. I remember, , Nicole, I know you're very familiar with Michelle Palazan Lipsitz. Yeah. [00:11:00] And one thing that Michelle says a lot is starting a business is the fastest way to self actualization.
Hmm. And I really like, I see that. I see in terms of just starting something for myself. Being able to reclaim what self trust means to me.
Nicole: Yeah. Do you feel like you're learning to trust yourself more?
Taylor: Like, how close do you feel? So much more. I mean, realistically, I feel like trust and self trust is a work in progress always.
, it's, you know, it's kind of like a goalpost that you're always sort of trying to get towards. , but I also feel like as I'm kind of trying, as I'm sort of contradicting myself, I feel like In order to trust yourself, you just have to do it. And by doing it, you reach the goal. You know what I mean? Like whatever it is, like genuinely, I could do something as simple as making my making breakfast every morning or even one morning.
That is self trust. [00:12:00] Like, figuring out, I don't know, an outfit to wear, like, just being able to, like, it sounds silly, but it's just, it's small ways that I've started to be able to realize, like, oh, right, I can trust my intuition here. And I, I also never knew what intuition was, really. I, I was never taught that, , until holisticism community.
So, I think by You know, I'm starting, I think I, I think I am, I think I'm achieving it, as I'm saying, like I said, it's very much a work in progress, but as you show up trusting yourself, no matter how big or small, like you're doing it. , so I think I'm, I think I'm trying and I, and I think that's, that's what, that's what counts.
And I certainly feel a lot better for it.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Just gotta jump.
Taylor: Literally, like literally.
Nicole: Yeah, it's scary for sure. I think it's great you mentioned outfits because That that is such like a it seems like it's just a small thing But yeah, just trusting yourself to choose your own clothes choose your own [00:13:00] style and like yeah, just choose what feels good
Taylor: It's it's so funny because I used to be the person, you know Especially with the pandemic like I am just the type of person that I hate malls.
I hate going into malls I will just buy everything online and then what I used to do because I partly was lazy like a lot of it was I think just lazy and I thought okay you know what I can like you know everything is fine I just wanted to be as easygoing as possible if I were to buy something and I didn't actually like it I kind of forced myself to be like it's fine I can deal with it.
instead of going to return the thing. Yeah. And like, to me, that is such a small , but like a very fitting metaphor for trusting your own opinion, trusting that something doesn't feel right and acting on that trust. So it's like, you know, okay, now I'm going to return this skirt because I actually didn't like it.
And I'm telling myself I didn't like it. So it's just like, The point is, is stress can certainly go beyond words, can certainly [00:14:00] be go beyond copywriting. , but I actually found in terms of just like fashion, it's It's just another example where you can, you can do the opposite of trust yourself.
Nicole: You can trust the opinions of others.
You can trust Pinterest, but not yourself.
Taylor: Oh yeah. I mean, comparison, like we could go on a whole conversation about self trust versus comparison. Like absolutely. And that could go from Pinterest. That could go to Instagram. That could go to anything you see on the internet. So it's really kind of learning how to Discern.
I think, I think trust and discernment go hand in hand.
Do you think that you're self trusting, that you trust yourself? I'm curious.
Nicole: Yeah, that's a great question. I do think it's, I, I kind of hate this answer I'm about to give, but I do think it's something that's gotten stronger as I've aged.
, I feel like I'm getting there.. Yeah, I return stuff all the time. I drive to there's a ups store.
It's only three minutes away. I return so many things [00:15:00]
Taylor: Do you mean like that? It's such a small example but it's actually such a good like litmus test to be like I trusted that that just did not work for me and We're gonna act on it. Like it's the action and the execution of something that I feel like where a lot of people get really stuck, myself included, , I'm really only learning to kind of just like trust that idea and or trust that opinion and then actually act on it.
Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, I think, I think the more I've like learned to trust myself and my decisions on big things in relationships, the more I've also learned to return clothes I don't like.
They do go hand in hand.
Taylor: They do! They do! Do you find that as you've started to trust yourself as just like a human, do you find that , your brand has an impact, or that like, you see that in your brand now, like the evolution, the energy from [00:16:00] I don't know, even like five or six years ago to now, do you kind of see almost like the trickle effect of it?
Yeah,
Nicole: a hundred percent. I'm so glad you asked that actually. When I first started my own business, , it was like a very kind of slow build to building my own business. Yeah. Like I quit my, my last, Like full time job I left in 2017. , and that was a marketing agency. , and then I was doing all kinds of gig economy stuff, like lots of teaching online, things like that. , and so I don't think I could say that my business really started. Until like 2020, right? When I no longer could move because I was very, I was very, uh, prior to that.
So all of that was set up to say though, that at the beginning of my business, like one of my biggest fears was that someone I knew would see me trying to build a business.
Taylor: Ooh, yeah, I have that. I actually have that.
I feel like there is a little bit of a, not necessarily a stigma, but I feel like it's, it edges on cringe territory. Like, there's this thing that, I mean, as you said, we [00:17:00] can go down so many rabbit holes when it comes to trust, but I feel like with trust, there's so much of this idea of needing to be seen, or like, even just wanting to be seen and heard.
And when you try something, It's so scary and like having somebody you know see you try Like it feels like mortifying which is so insane because you know, anyone should praise you for trying something but I absolutely have felt that so I completely Completely empathize with it. Yeah,
Nicole: I had to block people.
You gotta do what you gotta do. I was like, you know what, it's okay, I gotta do this. I don't want this person to see me doing this. Come back to the question you asked me. Has my increased trust in myself had a trickle effect in my business? The answer is absolutely yes. a little like ashamed sad to say that like I needed the external validation in order to build that trust in myself like once I had that and I was like okay this is working [00:18:00] oh wow I've been doing this for a year two years three years like oh I've been doing it it's working it's supporting me it's My full time thing, like that contributed to my self trust to see that external, the external response, the external results.
, but now that I trust myself and I trust my business so much more, like I'm no longer afraid of people seeing me do this. So it's made me able to like show up on my newsletter way more authentically. You know, I can show up a lot. And I never, ever, like I, like we started this conversation about your archetype quiz.
, I never would have called my business, the life of the party. One year ago two years ago, but now yeah, I much more I put myself out much more than I used
Taylor: to
That makes me so happy. Yeah, that just it truly just makes me so happy and I also feel too because as like really online service providers it can be Very, , like almost like groundless, like you do kind of have to [00:19:00] see the external validation of somebody messaging, messaging you about something or getting, you know, even a response in an email or anything like that, because they're the nature of being online, there is a little bit less of that sort of natural , like, humanness, essentially, like, it's a lot harder to read things, and I feel like when you're trying something new, you kind of have to be able to see, okay, what is working and what isn't, and I think there is something, I think, I think a lot of people, I think myself included, too, have to, you know, have, have had to, you know, take in the opinions of other people just to understand like, oh right, I actually do have something to offer.
Okay, I'm not like, you know, doing this and it's not working. I think part of that is almost like a, like a, um, uh, like a coming of age, so to speak, like a, like an initiation, I guess, so to say.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, the nature of the work we do, like, it does have to work. [00:20:00] Like, we do need to see results from what we do.
Of course. Um, yeah. Okay, well, let's, before, I feel like we could just talk about this forever, so I want to make sure that we, , look at the definitions. , so, I'm going to read a few of these and then point out some things. Thank you. That I thought were interesting and just tell me like what stands out to you.
So, trust has a lot of definitions.
But I do want to call out that of course we have the noun and the verb. Which one do you think we think of first?
Taylor: I feel like I think of verb. Yeah, I agree. I think. Like, when I think of like, like, like I am trusting or somebody is trusting me, like, I feel like it's active. Like, I feel like it's, it's not just something that is waiting to be, I feel like it's like the thing that's very active. Does
Nicole: that make sense?
It does, yeah. It does feel like an active thing. Like, it's something that you like kind of have to feel. Yes. So the first definition is the noun and it is, Assured reliance on the character, [00:21:00] ability, strength, or truth of someone or something.
So the way you would put this in a sentence is, I put my trust in you. Cause then trust is a noun.
Taylor: I mean, like, yes, you do put your trust in somebody. Like, absolutely. But , that's just never how I think about it.
Maybe?
Taylor: I feel like now my brain is having , like the cogs are having to turn. , but yeah, literally, I love it when I'm like, Ooh,
Nicole: uh, my cogs are turning.
Taylor: Oh, it just, you know what? It just really like unlock something when you're, when your brain really has to go. Yeah.
Nicole: Think about it. Being confused is like the best. I love it. I'm like, oh, I got to figure this out. Um, yeah. I mean, and I do my first instinct with trust is to think of it as a verb, but I also like, as we're talking about, I, I like the idea of thinking that it's something I carry around like, like a basket of grapes and I could just like hand them out.
Oh my gosh. I love that. [00:22:00] Like I'm going to put some of my trust in you and some of my trust. That's actually
Taylor: so cute. I don't think I'm ever going to think of trust. ever again in the same way. It's going to be a little basket of grapes. Yeah. So, but it's true though. And you know what that made me think of?
I don't really know how this relates, but maybe it does. It makes me think also of like, don't put all of your eggs in one basket. And like, It's almost like a, um, I'm trying to think almost, like, really in real time about how, you know, the one idea segues into the other, but it almost makes me think, like, you know, you can put your trust, you can put this, this feeling into multiple people, it doesn't have to be one person, you're kind of, it's almost like, don't put your, , like, don't put all of your happiness in one person, you know what I mean?
Like, that's kind of the thing that I was thinking of, and I don't really know if this is even a real thought. It's just something that totally popped into my head, which feels very reassuring. So maybe there's that, like, assurance piece of the, the definition, , [00:23:00] it just feels almost reassuring that my trust can go multiple places and, like, I don't feel as vulnerable. Did that make sense?
Nicole: Yeah. And also, I think that we subconsciously have this feeling that our trust is finite. Like, we only have so much to give.
But maybe there's, like, a whole Vineyard, behind me, I could go get more any time to hand out more grapes. Like, there's like, a lot. Yes.
Taylor: Yeah. That is brilliant. That is actually brilliant. And I feel like you're unlocking what I was tr like, what I was trying to piece together and think about. But I think you're so right, and there's something so reassuring about the fact that it goes back to the idea of like, you can have onemore than one best friend.
Like back to literally like childhood comments of worrying that there's this, um, there's this finiteness and there's this, , like [00:24:00] urgency to accumulate and to consume.
I would imagine and certainly is linked to capitalism, is linked to consumerism, is linked to all of these things that we've been taught. I mean, I certainly, you know, I can, I guess, speak from the eye here, like in terms of the, what I was taught as like. You have to , get this opportunity while you can, or do this while you can.
And I think there's something so reassuring that trust as a feeling , you can always have more of it.
Nicole: Yeah. Which actually ties us really well into the next definition. So the second definition of the noun is dependence on something future or contingent hope.
So that makes it feel like super like optimistic and not finite, right? Like it's like, my trust is kind of. Dependent on hope is I think what that's saying. This is fun for me to think about like, do they need to both exist? Like, do you need hope in order for trust to [00:25:00] exist?
Taylor: That's tricky. I would say, speaking from personal experience, I would say yes, but I would also love to hear somebody who is like, no, like one could exist without the other. But I feel like for me, going back to even just starting my business, The Idea Haven, In order for me to trust that I could do it, I also had to have hope for the fact that, like, hope became almost the future vision.
I didn't know what it looked like yet, but I saw it. I, like, claimed it, and that kind of gave me the trust. It actually gave me the, I put my trust in myself. It gave me the motivation, the motivator to, , to actually take action on it. So I feel like, in that instance, The two of them had to kind of co exist, they had to both be there.
Because, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, you know, if you didn't have hope in [00:26:00] something, could you trust it? That could, I think, go with relationships. Like, if you didn't have hope in another person, could you put your trust in that person?
I don't know, I'd be curious. I would genuinely be curious. Like, I'm very open in that regard. Like, I would genuinely be curious to hear somebody say, Say, actually, no, I don't believe so.
Nicole: Yeah. What do you
Taylor: think?
Nicole: Yeah, and I, I normally think of trust as, and trust is something good will happen, which makes me think that it, that hope does feel like, I don't know, freq, requirement might feel like too strong a word, but I feel like they exist simultaneously a whole lot.
Yeah. , But also, I'm wondering now, too, if you can have trust that something bad will happen. Like, I trust this is gonna fail, which
Taylor: maybe, maybe you can. Well, well, I mean, like, realistically, if you think about the The opposite, and certainly I'm not, I'm not like, I think the term's like an etymologist, or I just like knowing words.
I certainly don't know all the ins and outs, but I'm [00:27:00] thinking too, like, if you think about trust in its opposition, I feel like fear and anxiety. go hand in hand with the lack of trust. And like, when you say, oh, I trust that this is gonna fail, you're not necessarily trusting that, like, you are maybe sure trusting that it's gonna fail, but like, you have that anxiety and you almost have that like gut instinct.
that it will fail. So you don't have hope that it's going to fail, but you certainly have, so maybe it's more like hope versus fear slash anxiety. Yeah. I don't know, but I feel like you're, you're onto something that I'm, like, I'm very interested to kind of think about in terms of, like, what happens when you say, oh no, this is going to fail.
Because you're trusting kind of thing. Like, or like, or this is, You know, if this bad thing is going to happen, but from my perspective, I feel like that comes from fear and anxiety.
Nicole: No, I think you're right. Well, and I think that's almost like, like it's taking liberties with [00:28:00] the word a bit, you know, like it's trying, it's like twisting it in a way that I don't know it was meant to be
twisted,
Nicole: which is fun to do, but I think, like, I'm reaching the point where I'm like, ah, I think I'm twisting it a little too hard.
I'm exploring it, which is fine, but I feel like
Taylor: Yeah,
Nicole: I'm going to say trust, trust and hope. That's where I'm falling.
Taylor: Trust and hope go hand in hand. They
Nicole: coexist. Yeah. , and so the last thing I want to mention too, from the definition about trust as a noun, is of course something I did not think of when we looked this up.
This recording. Um, but the idea of like, trust fund baby, like having a trust. Oh yeah! And it's, it makes sense, like it's like hope for the future, like it's, you're putting something in a trust so that it will be there for you. Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. But like, again,
Taylor: it goes back to the idea of eggs, like a nest egg.
I don't know why I have this, this thought in my head that just keeps coming back, but you're so, like, okay. [00:29:00] One, even though I can't always make the connections, the connections I feel like are there. I, like, it's, that's so right, that's so true, like a hope in the future.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Brilliant. Yeah. It's also kind of like, playing the game, like you're putting hope, yeah, like, like yes, there's trust and hope, but also you're kind of assuring.
. There's no unknown about it, you know? No.
Taylor: The, the cogs are really turning. That actually That's really interesting, because like at what point, and maybe I'm splitting hairs, or I'm just kind of really jumping off of people. That's what we're here to do, split hairs.
But when you're thinking about, you know, when you're thinking about trust, right? Like there should be that, very strong, , almost like cemented foundational quality to it. But like, In comparison to hope where you actually don't know something and that there isn't certainty versus the assuredness of a trust fund, for instance, like there is a quality of sureness, right?
Like just as [00:30:00] you said. So that's just very interesting. The kind of like polar, I'm telling you, trust is quite the, quite the umbrella word here, but it's just interesting to think about the two where there's, there's a level of uncertainty But also there has to be, or not has to be, but there can be certainty in some regards, and like, you're, you're like, sidestepping hope.
And, well, I guess maybe there's a little hope in there, but like, at the trust fund, let's just say, as an example, you're kind of sidestepping it, and It's assuring that something is going to happen, or like that, you know what I mean? Like it's just, it's interesting, I love this word. I didn't think that, like, I had certain ideas of where this conversation was gonna go, but when you really bring in the definitions, you can, as words people, we can really, we can really dive off the deep end.
Oh yeah, I know. It
Nicole: can get a little dangerous. [00:31:00] That's okay. Well, and it's interesting because. I think to me, there is like an edge of unknown to the word trust. It's like trusting, even though you're not sure, like that feels to me like a part of it.
And , we also talk about building trust. So, so yes, you can have a little uncertainty with trust, but also trust is built because like you would trust me more if I, if our past. Showed you that you could like if I had given you reasons to trust me. So trust in a way It I mean it is built and it is earned
Taylor: Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to say it Yeah that I like literally could not have said that better myself.
That was such a gorgeous way of saying it's true It absolutely is it's built and it's earned and that kind of is where we sort of build that like it I was just literally as you were saying that envisioning You a, like a building being built or a castle being built or just, you know, adding the, adding all of the elements in order to make sure it's a very sturdy foundation.[00:32:00]
Because at the end of the day, it's, you know, if something's rocky, it, it, it won't stand the test of time or, or be able to actually resonate with somebody when it, if we're going back to, to copywriting, whether for us as, you know, as somebody giving the service or for our clients, whatever that client may be.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, and trust is something, I love that you used the building example, because yeah, if you, like, showed someone a building, and you're like, hey, look at this building, and it's like a bunch of concrete on top of sticks, like, be like, hey, do you trust this is going to stand? Be like, no! I do not. Like, I'm not going to take that bet.
You know, there's like a betting quality to trust, , and you can either take the bet or not take the bet. And of course, that leads me to think too, like how painful it is when trust is broken.
Um, especially when
Nicole: you think about like your intimate relationships, how painful it can be when someone you thought you trusted does something that makes you feel like you can't trust them anymore.
Taylor: I feel like, I mean, realistically, In terms of relationship [00:33:00] building, whether that is a, in your personal life, whether that is a client, a community, what, what have you, I feel like trust is literally the foundation. Like if that is not there, then nothing else truly matters. And so that's, I think probably why it also gets, it becomes so much more painful if there's like betrayal or if there is disappointment or anything like that.
So it's really interesting to also see how potent of a. of an emotion that it is, that it doesn't actually, I don't even know if you would classify it as an emotion, but like, that entity, it's so powerful that it almost feels tangible.
You know, like
Taylor: at the very least it, it, it kind of breeds tangibility in the sense of like, you certainly feel closer to somebody in, in like, emotion and proximity and physicality.
When you have trust in somebody. So yeah, that's, that's a very interesting way to think about [00:34:00] it too.
Nicole: Yeah, it does feel tangible. And it just an aside, I think something that's important to call out is in business and in relationships, you don't have to be the one. That broke someone's trust in order for them to be less trustful.
So if you're, if they've been burned by another copywriter in the past, They're going to have less trust with a new copywriter, you know, same with like, romantic relationships. Like if you've been cheated on, you're going to have less trust with a new partner, even if they weren't the one to do it, like trust isn't always just a one to one person thing.
Taylor: No. And I think that goes back to, again, this more, maybe noun kind of quality of it, or sort of the way that you're thinking about it in terms of this, you know, this, this Close in proximity to hope versus fear, or, or like you lose hope in something or somebody, or, you know, the, the skill of a copywriter that's burned you in the past, or, or something along those lines, just as much as if you felt the same way [00:35:00] as, you know, as a relationship, as like somebody outside of, you know, um, your business kind of community.
So I feel like the, um, I feel like it goes back to that idea that there is hope and or fear coexisting with how you interpret trust, how you are experiencing trust.
Nicole: I
Taylor: think.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. That was very well said. Thank you.
Taylor: Behind the screen, I am talking with my hands because that is the way that I actually like, that's how I process literally anything.
So I'm making the literal,
Nicole: literal face, literal finger on my chin. The whole time you're talking like, yeah, I love it. I love it.
Taylor: That's how we process. But,
Nicole: , okay, so a resource I love looking at, , for these podcasts is the 1828 dictionary, because it's kind of fun to see like, oh, what, how did they, and I'm not going to read all the definitions because [00:36:00] there are a lot.
The one thing that stood out, of course, of course, is the amount of biblical references for the word trust. So it's a lot of like, he put it, he put it, his trust in the Lord.
Taylor: Oh yes, I did actually see that. I think I clicked on it when you, when you mentioned a couple of the sources, the resources. Yeah, I did.
Well then, I feel like also I think that might maybe extend going back to hope, right? Like there's like hope, very much in religious context, that is, hope is like truly a, you know,, I'm more of a spiritual person, but I do think that religion, in religion, hope is a pretty important piece of, you know, like being able to trust in something.
Nicole: And yeah, it brings back that, like, uncertainty thing we were talking about, like, in, in, like, when you bring in spirituality of any kind, I think it, it does involve, like, a trust in something we absolutely cannot trust.
No, this like, after, [00:37:00] after death story. Like, trusting in that, seems like it requires a lot of hope and a lot of faith.
Taylor: And actually, and I hope I don't, you know, digress this so much, but I am really curious, as somebody who is very familiar with like, the spiritual community, , I imagine, I don't want to assume, but I imagine no, has worked with spiritual.
People or like people who offer any kind of like spiritual courses or anything like that. I think there's also a very, I'm thinking about my words here. , it's a very interesting challenge as a copywriter to write for something. And I shouldn't even just say spirituality. That was just something that popped into my head.
But realistically, when you're writing copy, you're writing from a place of This is what this person is going through, and this is something that, if they solve their problem, or, or pain point, or whatever it may be, this is what could be. And realistically, there isn't, the person that you're speaking to, the [00:38:00] person that is reading those words, has not actually felt that, , new, future state.
And so, when it comes to being able to write copy. Whether that's for again, like a spiritual experience of some sort that somebody hasn't experienced or it could be something literally like, you know, more, more of a tangible product or more of a tangible service. They still haven't experienced that. So it's, it's an interesting challenge to be able to speak to hope in a way that isn't like coercive.
That isn't, , like spiritual bypassing, that isn't any of these things that kind of, you know, just say like, oh, you will, you will reach this enlightened state once you do this, like it's, it's, that's just something that I've actually very much grappled with as a copywriter and it's, it's, as I've mentioned before,, it is a unique challenge to kind of To [00:39:00] put into tangible language and also put into a tangible way, those kinds of experiences when let's say hope and you know, all these things are very much required.
So I feel like I just completely rambled, but my kind of question, I guess, going back to that is, have you noticed that? Have you, have you experienced that? Have you ever thought about like that kind of, , that chat, like that challenge or that sort of experience?
Nicole: Yeah. , and I think especially, like I have worked with a few clients that are more in like the spiritual space too, and I, those are particularly challenging for all the reasons you just said.
I'm not going to repeat them like you said it perfectly. But people, , when people write their own copy in those, areas, , they tend to be super, super vague, like super, like, , these kind of spiritual vague promises that are, yeah, hard for people to grasp, grasp onto. And as you know, like specificity is so important.[00:40:00]
And that's where, like a lot of People have had issue with the idea of pain point marketing. And I get it. Cause like, if you say pain point, it sounds painful, but I think , like being able to communicate. To hold up a mirror on a sales page to someone's pain and be like, It's not, it's not like poking their pain, like I don't want anyone to go in there and start like jabbing needles in an open wound.
It's not pouring salt in
Taylor: the wound. Yes. Exactly. But it's saying like,
Nicole: I see what you're going through. If you're able to do that. Then they're going to trust the future you promise more. So it's so important to be able to talk about the struggle in a very, very clear, very concrete way, ways. Like, what's something that happened in their day?
Now we're getting into copywriting lessons, right? But like, what's something that happened in their day that illustrates this pain? Can you say, hey, It's almost like I was standing at your window watching you go through that. Yeah, [00:41:00] no,
Taylor: I think that's so true. And like, and of course, like, I didn't necessarily, like, I wanted to ask that question, and I know we're getting a little bit in the weeds a little bit, but it's, I think it's so important as we're copywriters, as, you know, we have, we do this on a daily basis, and when it comes to any, really any kind of, product, service, what have you, and the spiritual kind of industry, I guess, like anything revolving around a different state of mind, I think that's huge to be able to do that in a way that honors the person as they are currently without, as I mentioned, like pouring salt on the wound, without, , agitating a pain point or problem.
And I certainly understand, like we could even talk about, I don't know, the, the, just the energy of pain points. Like, of course, you're going to feel that it literally feels energetically painful, but it's just thinking about [00:42:00] how to, to ethically, how to non coercively sort of also, also not mirrorback, but actually project a future, a future state without kind of get going off the rails and without making it, , not relatable.
So I think, I loved, I loved what you said. I think that's so true, being able to speak to the specificity of what they're going through.
Nicole: Yeah. It's like being able to like, this is about to sound very religious, but being able to like walk with them down a path instead of standing at the end of the path and like waving from really far away.
Like, it's so beautiful over here. Instead of like go meet them and then walk with them there. Yeah.
Taylor: At the end of the day, I think from what I've realized, People just don't want to be alone. They don't want to be alone in what they're going through. And like that, knowing that, knowing that somebody actually understands, knowing that somebody sees them, which really I think goes back to trust, is so important, that makes, that makes the world of a [00:43:00] difference.
And that again brings them into a dialogue with you, a dialogue with whatever conversation you're having, whatever copy you're, whatever copy they're reading. Yeah.
Nicole: And you gotta do that first. You gotta do that first before promising them.
Taylor: I love how this is like a impromptu copy lesson.
Nicole: I know. I like it too. , let's take a second to look at the etymology. , because that is my favorite part. Digging into the history of the word and seeing how it's changed.
, so in etymology online, and sometimes etymology is guessing, but here's the guess. It's probably from Old Norse. Trous, which means help, confidence, protection, support,
um,
Nicole: also from Proto Germanic abstract noun troustum, , which is like to comfort, consolation, fidelity, , agreement, alliance. And then if we go more into Proto [00:44:00] Germanic, and Old English, we'd get Trauean, which is to believe, , and it's from the Pai root, Deru, which is to be firm, solid, and steadfast. Oh. Yeah. So, I like this journey. We've got, like, to be steadfast, we have to believe, we have help, support. Consolation, I kind of liked in there, and comfort. Mm
Taylor: hmm, yep.
Nicole: But you can see how all these words just kind of Fidelity, or like fidelity, which is also interesting
Taylor: as well.
Nicole: So yeah, just see how, like, all of those things to me, , when I'm reading them out loud, they feel like ingredients of trust. Like, it feels like I'm reading an ingredient list, you know? Like, if I trust someone, I'm gonna have more comfort with them. I'm gonna feel supported. I'm gonna feel protected.
I'm going to feel more steady on my own feet. Like if I, I like the word steadfast. I think that's the word that stands out to me the most, is steadfast.
Like just,
Nicole: because I feel like , having trust gives you a sense of, it's, it's safety. [00:45:00] Like feeling steadfast in your own body, on your own feet, in your own community.
Taylor: I agree. I actually think that that's such a brilliant way to put it, is that you, you feel like you're reading an ingredient list. Because as it sort of evolved, it doesn't feel like, it doesn't really feel like it's building on one another. It genuinely kind of feels like they're all. They're like multiple sides of a , multi sided coin, you know, or like a Rubik's Cube or I don't know, a cube.
Do you just say a cube, I don't know why I said Rubik's Cube, um, and it's like, that's kind of, it feels like, , without all of those definitions, it would feel incomplete.
Mm hmm.
Taylor: That's kind of how it feels because they're all slightly different that like, I need all of them. Mm hmm. To, to trust somebody,
Nicole: I mean, yeah, that's a word cloud I would love to stand in. Cozy up
Taylor: to all those words. That's so cute. I literally love the way you speak. Like, as, as a, as a, as a fellow word person, [00:46:00] I just, I love the way that you speak. It's just, it's so, uh, tangible, and like, embodied. I love it.
Nicole: That means a lot. You're welcome.
Taylor: Honestly, I feel excited to, or not even excited, maybe that's not the right word, but I feel very curious, I feel very curious about all of the definitions that we can come up with when it comes to trust, and I think where the excitement comes in is I'm going back to, like, my English literature roots, and I'm speaking to somebody on a very, like, more or less intellectual Like academic type topic that is so fascinating to me to think about and to talk about so , it does [00:47:00] excite me to be able to kind of think about trust in different ways and to sort of think about, you know, I think Joan Didion was the person that said, I don't know something until I write about it.
And it's same thing. , you know, we're not writing per se, but when we talk about it, when we kind of go through these different things, I feel more trusting in my own opinions and more trusting in kind of the ways that I've almost alchemized , the word, um, through time, through different evolutions of who I am, but I also feel really kind of excited to, to bring in these other perspectives and like just to think about, okay, what are the, like, think about steadfastness, to be able to bring these things into , how I write copy, how I trust my community, how I build trust in my community.
, and I just think it's such a fruitful conversation. Like, I genuinely just find it so interesting to be able to dig into what these terms have, have existed as through [00:48:00] time. , and I think in terms of feeling differently, that's, I think it's just I feel, I feel fired up to take all of that in.
If that, if that makes sense. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. What about
Nicole: you? Yeah, I think especially like thinking of it as a noun made me look at it in a different way Yes. Than like the way I would normally look at it. Mm-Hmm. If I wasn't thinking about it. And I, so I think like, starting our conversation in that way just kind of set us up to, to like hold the word and look at it like from Yes.
Taylor: Different angles than we usually do. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, I actually had a thought. Yes. So now trust. Uh, I know, I see it as literally a basket of grapes. That is like genuinely something that I'm going to take away because that is such a lovely image. And, , yeah, I think, I, I think that's brilliant. So I'm definitely, I definitely see that differently.
Nicole: Yeah, me too. And the basket regenerates. It does. It's like that, do you remember that children's book with like [00:49:00] the bowl of, Was it spaghetti? That like never, it keeps
Taylor: creating spaghetti?
Nicole: I
Taylor: think so. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. It just, it never, it never diminishes. You never have a finite, you know, essence of it or quality of it.
It always can, can come back. And I think that, yeah, I love that image. Yeah.
Nicole: Also permission to be discerning. Permission to be discerning. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Taylor: Hold your grapes. Protect your grapes. Uh, okay. That should be the title of the episode. Protect your grapes. That would not
Nicole: be clear at all. No one would know what this was about.
Taylor: That would not be a good copywriting thing. But it would be very enjoyable.
Nicole: It
Taylor: would be very delightful.
Nicole: It would be. It would be delightful. And sometimes it's worth breaking copywriting rules to be delightful.
Taylor: It really is. Yes. Yes. Copy tip number however many after this entire episode. But yes, that is so true.
Nicole: , all right, Taylor, [00:50:00] where should people go on the internet to find out more about you? What if they want to work with you or see what you're up to? Where should they go?
Taylor: So right now, , Instagram is probably the best, um, space essentially to connect with me. I am going through a little rebrand, which is actually very perfect for the eclipse season happening right now.
I'm a Gemini Rising and it's in my 10th house, so that is very public branding. , and after that I'll be launching a new website. So I would say Instagram is the best place to connect. There's also tons of free resources, including the brand archetype quiz, which is. If anything, super fun. Like it's super fun little thing to do.
, but there's a lot of resources there. , and you can get in contact with me if you do want to connect and work together.
Nicole: Perfect. And yeah, definitely do the brand archetype quiz. It was very fun and very like, not, it wasn't like a hundred questions. I forget how many it was, but it felt like very doable.
Taylor: Less than three minutes. Like I think I put that on the actual quiz. It's [00:51:00] less than three minutes. Like you may have to think about it a little bit, but it's pretty quick.
Nicole: But yeah, super fun. Not generic questions at all. Very, very fun to take.
Taylor: I worked hard on
Nicole: it. It comes through, but in a good way, where like, you made it easy.
Thank you. Thank you. So sweet. . Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much taylor. This has been so so lovely and I I appreciate you coming on. It's been a great conversation.
Taylor: Oh my gosh, it's truly my pleasure and I can certainly say that you are a hundred percent a life of the party because I, Nicole and I, actually have never spoken in person before and I genuinely felt that you were Like, I was chatting with an old friend, so truly the life of the party, and , it's been, genuinely, it's absolutely my pleasure.
Nicole: Thank you so much for listening to It's All Poetry. You have no idea what it means to me to have you here. This podcast is [00:52:00] recorded and produced and edited by yours truly. I've had to learn a lot of tech, y'all. You can find all the resources and links from this episode in the show notes. At Nicole copy.com/ it's all poetry.
The music you hear throughout is by Jack Pierce. And if you enjoyed this episode, there is a bunch of other stuff that you might want to check out from my weekly newsletter with marketing prompts to one-on-one copy coaching for your business to branding guidance, uh, and more things that I'm not even aware of at the time of this recording because I add stuff all the time.
But it's all right there@nicolecopy.com. Thanks again for loving words with me. I'll see you next time.
Looking for more info about Taylor? Here's where you can find her:
Take Taylor's Brand Archetype Quiz: Available on her Instagram
Connect with Taylor on Instagram (especially during her current rebrand!) @theideahaven
Connect with the It's All Poetry podcast team (i.e., Nicole!) at itsallpoetry.podcast@gmail.com
Sign up for weekly marketing prompts that don't feel gross at nicolecopy.com/prompts
Find show notes and links at nicolecopy.com/its-all-poetry
And I leave you with this…
TRUST, noun
c. 1200, "reliance on the veracity, integrity, or other virtues or sound principles of someone or something; religious faith," probably from Old Norse traust "help, confidence, protection, support."
