27. The art and heart of "design" (with Sarah Jutras)
What does “design” truly mean, and how does it shape more than just our screens? Sarah Jutras, founder of Huzzah Studio and creator of the "Freelance for Life" Substack, joins Nicole to take a deep dive into the expansive world of design—from user experience and app development to designing a fulfilling freelance life.
Tune in to learn…
How Sarah’s early inspirations in design shape her approach to lifestyle design today
What it means to "design" a freelance career and why it’s about more than just aesthetics
The philosophical roots of design—from crafting family experiences to creating UI with impact
Insights into life-centered design and how it challenges traditional UX/UI for broader, meaningful outcomes
You can “design” anything—tune in now:
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Note: Transcripts are AI generated. Please excuse any errors! :)
Hi, Sarah. Hi. I'm so glad you're here. , okay. For everyone listening, I have Sarah Jutra with me on the podcast today. Sarah is the founder of Huzzah Studio.
She's an amazing UX, UI designer. Has 15 years experience. Is that right, Sarah? 15 years experience in design. Yeah. And eight years as a solopreneur. You also teach some amazing freelance courses that I've heard a lot of great things about. [00:01:00] And you have a sub stack called freelance for life, but everyone should check out.
, Sarah shares her experience building a lifestyle business and a whole lot more tips inside peaks behind the scenes. It's wonderful. Is there anything else that you want people to know before we get started?
Sarah: That's a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much, Nicole. , I am based in the Bay Area. , I have a new rescue puppy, Benny.
This is kind of my life these days. Yeah. And that was a great intro to, to my work and my interests. Awesome. Yeah. Benny's so cute. Is he enjoying puppy class? He's doing great. Yeah. He's in puppy training and he's, he's a great learner. So we're doing really well and having a lot of fun. Awesome.
Nicole: Okay. Well, today we're going to be talking about the word design.
And part of the reason I'm so excited to talk about this word with you, especially is because I love the way that you use the word design. Like obviously you use it In your work, like you are a literal designer, , but you also use it to [00:02:00] talk about like designing a life and designing careers. So you use it in this really broad sense, which is why, yeah, I'm just so excited to dive into it with you.
, but I'm going to ask you to elaborate on that. Like, what is your personal connection or experience with the word design?
Sarah: Yeah, I
love this
design for me. It's such a big. Word and term, right? That can lead us to many different things. , but I loved the selection of this word because it really is omnipresent in my life.
, and I wanted to share this quote that another, a famous designer had, had spoken of, , Paul Rand. And he had said, everything is design, everything. And I was like, oh, I really, I really liked that, that framing. , and I think that, Thinking of this, everything is design. Of course, as a designer, , in the work that I do, but also, as you mentioned, in the life that we lead, , we can really create anything if we have that perspective that anything and everything is design and can be designed.[00:03:00]
Nicole: Yeah. And your course is called designing your freelance life, right? So it's very applicable to everything you're doing right now.
Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Designing your freelance business, but we also talk a lot about life. We also talk a lot about life. So
Nicole: yes, exactly. This is the, this is the challenge. Yes. Okay. So do you have any like early experiences with the word design?
Sarah: So, it's funny, I think, as a child, design came up in the context of crafts. And I remember I had some really beautiful memories recently, actually, of my mother, who I lost in 2020, and I was reflecting on the crafts that she used to do and the experiences that she used to design for us. Kids, you know, she designed this birthday party experience for me when it was raining.
And so we had friends come over and have a [00:04:00] movie night at the house. And she designed a actual display of a concession stand on the table. And we got to pick out and buy our candy from the concession stand and have popcorn. And so, , yeah, that memory came to me as well as the designs that she would do.
She would craft, , From, you know, Michaels, the craft stores, and buy paint and stamps, and she would make, , stamped paint designs on small wooden stools, and we grew up in, , partially in New England after we moved from California. And so we had a, an old Cape style house. And, , if you can kind of imagine, you know, like, like wallpaper and lots of like wooden decoration, and she had these little wooden stools and other, you know, fun things in the house.
And she would, , do stamps of, you know, like sunflowers or other things like that. So I think that's sort of my earlier memory of how design, right. Kind of came into my life as a kid.
Nicole: Yeah. I love the way you talk about that. Cause there [00:05:00] is. , like the literal crafting design, but also the designing of an experience, which is that concession story is so cool.
Yeah. And then my grandmother used to always like make like all our gifts were handmade from her.
Sarah: At the time
Nicole: I wasn't so grateful for them. Like now I'm more grateful than I was then as a kid. I was like, I want the latest, greatest toy, please. Exactly.
Sarah: Yeah. I have that same
Nicole: experience
Sarah: too. And, and then I think too, as I got older.
You know, not that much older, still in my childhood, , design took, you know, a new shape and form in my life with, , the projects that I was creating myself. So I have very vivid memories of getting really nerdy about creating things. Posters. So if you remember, you know, poster boards for presentations, I'm going to get all the supplies and having to do a presentation in front of my class and just designing that poster board and using sharpie and cutting up paper and yeah, putting that together.
And what's funny is that that [00:06:00] transitioned and morphed into PowerPoint presentations, which I started to learn how to use software and. You know, in my high school years, I was designing on the computer. And of course, that's eventually what led to the career that I have now. , but yeah, that sort of started from poster boards and presentation design and thinking about how to communicate stories through visuals.
Nicole: Yeah. Oh my gosh. , I used to love giving presentations too. PowerPoint was so different then. Yeah.
Sarah: I don't use PowerPoint anymore. I know. I don't. , yeah, these days it's all about, well, recently Figma just announced Figma Slides and Figma, for those who don't know about it, is a design software tool, , for a lot of digital product design, so website design, mobile design, it just makes it, , very easy to use, , there's some whiteboarding tools and they announced, uh, their new slides, which is taking over presentations as well.
Nicole: Oh, that's very cool. I'm definitely a Google Slides girl. Like, [00:07:00] I, I couldn't even transition to Canva, really. , but I like Figma. So that's, that makes me curious.
Sarah: Yeah.
Nicole: . Okay. Are you ready to look at the definitions?
Sarah: Yes.
Nicole: Okay. , and I do, I think, like, we're obviously going to talk about this, but I think the definitions support, like, your vision of, of the, the concept of design. So let's look at the modern definition first. , so the first definition in Merriam Webster is to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan.
Mm hmm. Which is very broad, right? Because I do think when people hear the word design, my assumption is the first thought is very literal, like app design, PowerPoint design, you know, website design. But really the first definition is this broad, like to create, fashion, or execute, or construct according to a plan.
, and we also have to conceive and plan out in the mind. Love that. Yeah. And to make a drawing pattern or sketch of. And then they have this archaic definition, which is [00:08:00] to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign, or name, which I can see how that's like a little like adjacent or like bud off of the main chute that is the word design.
Yeah, what are some of your initial reactions to the definitions?
Sarah: Yeah, so I love, I highlighted a few things when I was looking up these definitions that stood out to me, and those were Yes, to create, fashion, execute, construct, according to plan, to form an idea with a plan in mind.
Nicole: And
Sarah: when we think about planning, there's intention and there's purpose.
And I think that's what's so fascinating about design, and there's been a lot of conversations around, , the, , difference between design and art. Where design Inherently has purpose or goal, right? Attached to it. So when we use the term like, Oh, that's by design. Well, we wanted that outcome. We wanted that, that purpose.
We had that as our [00:09:00] plan. It doesn't always go according to plan, but you have, right, that, you know, constructed in the mind. , and art, right, is not necessarily for a goal or purpose. It might just be an expression, right, or emotion. , there is some overlap, I think, but I think that there's a, that delineation, , with constructing according to a plan or having a goal or an intention or a purpose for an outcome.
, so another phrase that I liked was devised for a specific function or end. The right form and function. , so yeah, I think that's, , really in line with how I think about design. The other side of it that you mentioned, I find really interesting, sort of the sketching, the drawing, the marking, , When we think about design as the noun, so designs, like here, I'm going to hand you some architectural designs or, you know, sketches of interior design, things like that.
And it reminded me, so I studied a little bit of Italian when I was in college and I went to study abroad in Italy and took art classes and design and, the verb for, , design in Italian [00:10:00] is, , divinare, which is like, right, we hear a little bit of that.
And then I'm learning French now, and it's, , dessiner, so there's a little bit of that design root, , I believe.
You know, we can probably look at the Latin root as well. , so it's interesting when we think about design versus a verb versus a noun, , and how that changes,
Nicole: but yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. Cause, and when you think of like design as a noun, like it, it is, Like, before the real thing, right?
Like, interior design is, I think, of a mock up on the computer, right? Or an architectural design. I always imagine that, like, as a very old, , at one of those stand up desks with a big piece of paper and someone, um, drawing on them. ,
Sarah: Yeah.
Nicole: It's
Sarah: the plan, right? Yeah. It's, it's planned. So there's the intention and the purpose and, , it's like the early creation of the thing.
, by design that gets manifested in a different form sometimes, which is, yeah, really cool.
Nicole: Yeah. And I do think, like you said, there's, there is an [00:11:00] overlap, I think, of art and design. , like if I just use the word plan, it doesn't feel like there's as much intention to it.
Like, I feel like design is at the intersection of art and plan.
Sarah: Mm hmm. I love that.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, like there is something artistic about design always, even though it feels very analytical when we're looking at the definitions.
Sarah: I completely agree, and I think that's why I love this, , this term, this word, when we're thinking about designing our businesses or designing our lives, because we talk about plan, of course, you can create like a five year plan, but there's not, it doesn't, the word plan doesn't feel creative, and design is so creative, and so it sort of opens up I think more possibility for us, more inspiration gathering and more, , ideation and dreaming when we think about design.
That's different than plan.
Nicole: Yeah, I think the word you just used, dreaming, is like, spot on. I think [00:12:00] that, when you said that, that was like, yes, that's it. That's the thing that's missing from plan. Is that like, artistic dreaming. And also collaboration. I don't know, design feels like it's, like not just like in groups, but collaboration with the world around you.
Like design seems like it incorporates more. Yes.
Sarah: I'd love to share something on that note. I love that concept. And there was, , another famous artist. So I might not pronounce his name properly because he's a Hungarian, was a Hungarian painter and photographer. And he taught as a professor, , in the Bauhaus school, Laszlo Mahalinaj.
, so, so he had written a lot about this word design and he had shared. That there is design and organization of emotional experiences in family life and labor relations and city planning and working together as civilized human beings. Ultimately, all problems of design merge into one great [00:13:00] problem, design for life.
So he goes on and he shares, in a healthy society, this design for life will encourage every profession and vocation to play its part since the degree of relatedness in all their work gives to any civilization, its quality. This implies it is desirable that everyone should solve his special task with a wide scope of a true designer with the new urge to integrated relationships.
It further implies that there is no hierarchy of the arts, painting, photography, music, poetry, sculpture, architecture, nor of any other field such as industrial design. They are equally valid departures toward the fusion of function and content in design. Yes.
Nicole: Oh, that made me like,
Sarah: see like a multiverse open up before my eyes.
It's a lot. It's a lot, right? It's a lot. But it's like, you, you start to see like, what I love is that your, your role, everyone's role as a designer, not just my career title as designer, but everyone's role in a designer in [00:14:00] their own life, in our, in our collective society, right? In our communities, in the futures that we want to dream up, like all of that, right?
It's very expansive. So I think that's my. I get excited about the word design.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, I think in lots of like spiritual like pillars of the world, right? There's this idea of a grand design. Like there's a grand kind of overarching purpose. Yeah.
Sarah: And a plan for things. Again, that word planning and design kind of coming together.
Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah,
How do I want to say this
design like it has more I think living in it like more life like plan feels like something that it Is, exists, exists without a life form attached to it.
Sarah: Does that make sense?
Nicole: And design needs life forms to like, build it out and to maybe use the plan to as a , path for the design. But it needs like, the life forms and I think it needs to be open [00:15:00] to different possibilities.
Sarah: Yes. I love that. And it reminds me of a term that's used quite a lot in, in my profession, in the work that I do, which is human centered design. Mm-Hmm. . And that when we're thinking about problem solving, , and planning, it's letting our human needs our, , you know, emotional nature, , connecting the core of the human experience.
To what we plan for and to the outcomes that we want to have. And that's always been a big part of the work, you know, with user experience designer, a lot of folks, you know, we don't love the term user, but it's, you know, human experience we're designing for human experiences. And recently I discovered.
Another portal into life centered design, which is focusing on it's not just about the humans. It's about the ecosystem that we're part of our world. Other things that we are affecting often, you know, recently, like [00:16:00] very negatively and like how things need to be designed right with more than just humans in mind.
So we have life centered design. ,
Nicole: I love that. It makes me think of, like, garden design or, like, permaculture garden design, you know, that's, like, paying attention to not just the human vegetables that we need, but also, like, the permaculture of the whole mountain, basically. Yeah,
Sarah: yeah. Yeah, there's, like, so much, education and learning, and that's a whole nother profession to do, learning design that needs to be incorporated into how we plan and how we solve and how we draft and then therefore sketch and create.
Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, I love this. Okay, let's look at the definition as of 200 years ago. 1828. So in the 1828 dictionary, , the definition of design was to delineate a form or figure by drawing the outline, to sketch as in painting, and other works of art. , and there are other definitions like to [00:17:00] plan, which we've already kind of talked about, which is very similar, or to project, to form an idea as to scheme, to purpose or intend.
But I think the definition, and I'd love to hear what you think too, but the definition that stands out most to me from this 1828 is that first one, to delineate a form or figure by drawing the outline, because it's, It's almost the opposite of the way we've been talking about design. It's deconstructing something that's already in front of you and making it an outline.
So it's like going backwards, you know?
Sarah: That's, yes, that's fascinating. And I wonder, you know, this, Definition for me is evoking a lot of, you know, like the art history that I studied and, , you know, I, when I got to live in, in Florence, Italy for a bit of time when I was in college and yeah, just thinking about the sketches that, well, it's interesting because the sketches do inform future works.
But we can also, as you said, deconstruct to learn about things. And so we're [00:18:00] sort of, , maybe, you know, when we're thinking about scientific, Sketches or designs or, , even when math and, , geometry get involved, but just sort of like trying to understand and use pencil and paper and use like written, right, sketch and drawing and this like early way of, of trying to process what, what we're looking at.
, and then I'm now I'm going back even further in my mind thinking about like cave paintings and like, right, like early, , representations of. Life and life forms through. Design through sketches. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. . Well, I think what it does too is it, it stretches out the timeline of the word. And what I mean by that is it's design like by adding this kind of deconstruction part to the definition of design, design is no longer, like, it's not starting from nothing and creating something.
, it's more like this. I know people aren't gonna see my hands, but I mean, yeah, like it's like. Bubble after bubble [00:19:00] after bubble, like funnel leading into other funnel leading into other funnel, like a constant process of deconstructing, designing, deconstructing, like rebuilding, rebuilding, it makes it like this huge timeline conversation.
Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah. The diverge converge, right? That wave pattern. I can, yeah, I can definitely see that. And, and this, when we talked earlier on about , looking at the Latin and the Italian and the Romance languages and sort of design, the word design, seeing a little bit of the word, our English word design in those languages, meaning to draw, like representing just to draw and just having that be the simplest form of design is just drawing and then it taking design.
Shape as an action verb to represent creating all sorts of things and we design is such a big world because we mentioned briefly, but you know, we have the word associated with interiors [00:20:00] and architecture and, , furniture. Oh, my gosh, and such a mid century, modern nerd and Charles and Ray Eames, like, amazing designers, historical designers of furniture.
And items for the home. And, yeah, we have, we have a lot of different forms of creation and planning and representation and sketching that show up in different design worlds.
Nicole: Yeah. And I think like they always inform each other, right? Do you have any stories that kind of illustrate that influence and how like. Deconstructing can create something new.
Sarah: Yes, so absolutely, it influences, I mean, any, everything and anything in life is a, you know, an art and design influence, so sometimes you don't see it as clearly.
It's like just, again, a part of you, a part of your aesthetic, things that you're drawn to,, things that bring you joy or delight or just are the way that you see beauty. , [00:21:00] nature though shows up in like so much, I mean, palettes, like I have to create color palettes, like it's all right coming from nature and like color theory, of course, plays a part in our selections, but you know, there's so much inspiration all around us in our physical world.
, one thought came to mind though, that I want to share. I worked with a client, , recently an amazing couple in the Bay area who are creating a business called Feta and they are designing, , ways for families to not only stay in touch with each other, but share , their memories and be able to kind of catalog life's, you know, magic and, and sort of have that, , that interface where they can, be in contact with, you know, the, the everydays of our day to day living.
And they are originally, the founders are originally from, , India. And so we were looking at, , you know, styling and color palettes, you know, just [00:22:00] different cultural Designs that might influence what shows up in their brand and in the app experience. And so there are often, there's a big research phase that happens in any design that I do.
And again, it is that aesthetic storytelling, the visual storytelling of like what. What is the influence here? And is it coming from travel? Is it coming from, , other designers who've done really amazing things and sort of shown us, right, that, that these different, , mediums are possible. So I think, yeah, all of that is very inspirational.
, it just sometimes is a little bit clearer how you got there than other times when you're sort of, it's a melting pot of inspiration and you're not exactly sure why it ended up that way, but you know, it's probably from something that you've taken in and. Trans transformed.
Nicole: Yeah.
Okay, let's look at the etymology because we've talked about it a few times. , so the Latin, , designare, , which that sounds a lot like some of the, like the French and [00:23:00] the, that you said before, right? Can you remind me what those words are? Yeah,
Sarah: I think that actually is. Maybe the same as, or almost the same.
There's a, there's a vowel change, but , disegnare is Italian. , yep. And dessiner in French. And those are to draw.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, and so, from the Latin version means to mark out, to point out, devise, choose, designate, appoint. , and then I love looking at the breakdown too, right?
So we have the two sections of it. The D, D, ? , and , signare, to mark. So it's the C to mark, which is identifying a mark or to see a sign. So that is our root. And then late 14th century, it becomes like to make shape, which makes me think of like, uh, sculpture is the first thing that comes to mind.
Like to shape something. , but yeah, let's take a step back. So that original route to mark out, point [00:24:00] out, devise, choose, designate, appoint, , is there anything in there that stands out to you or that influences the way you're seeing the word? I
Sarah: think
Nicole: hearing
Sarah: the word designate. Which has this root in it, and I don't think I thought about that much before, to designate something in design, right?
We have a similar root. And when I think about design with an outcome, And a goal and sort of, you know, solving a problem and sort of this end form, it's, there's a designation in that or designating something. , so that's kind of interesting. But yeah, we see, we see the markings and the identifying signs connecting back to a representation of something, a sketch, and sketch is the easiest word, but like a sketch, a drawing, right, a mark on a, on a paper, on a wall
Nicole: . It feels like, because there are two things there, right? There's the mark out or sketch, ? And then the, the designate or [00:25:00] appoint feels like the second step of that. It's like, oh, let's recognize and then give it a job. Like recognize, give a job. Recognize, give a job. Or like goal is the other word that you've used, right?
Yeah, which goes back to like what you were originally saying about like your experience of the of the word being like it has a goal. It has like a strategy and a reason a purpose.
Sarah: Um, so in
Nicole: the 1540s it starts to be used as to plan or outline to form a scheme. , 1703 is to contrive for a purpose. We're seeing that purpose word again, which I, I really like.
Yeah. I like that a lot. , and that graphic or plastic art, of course, didn't come around till later. Uh, 1854 is when it starts being used in that way. So the word has like centuries, if not more, of history before it ever really meant design the way we first think of it today.
Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's interesting in my experience when I meet people who are [00:26:00] not within my field in, in living in the kind of design that I'm living in mostly day to day. I often get the question, you know, what do you, what do you do like, Oh, you're a designer. Well, what, what is that? Or what kind of designer, what does that mean?
So you can see how we all have quite wide. definitions.
Nicole: Yeah.
Sarah: And I still struggle with answering that question, especially again, not everyone knows about, you know, UX design. I mean, it's hard to say, Oh, I am a designer. I think we have much more clarity when someone says I'm an artist and there might still be a follow up question of like, well, what's your medium, you know, and do you, are you a ceramicist?
Do you, are you a painter? , and designer also, this feels very broad. , especially when we get into, , Talking about experience design, which I have also a very big definition of and things that I want to do more of, it's like, I want to design experiences and not just designing websites. And so, yeah, it's, it's kind of a, there's beauty in how big this term [00:27:00] is and how much it can hold.
And I love that you point out, , it's, , kind of growing timeline and how that has shifted over the years.
Nicole: I love that you said experience design because I am also a big video game er and video game maker. I finished one. I finished one in my life, but I love it. It was so much fun. And there is something about like, okay, I think my brain is doing this thing where I'm imagining like a spectrum, which I don't know is entirely fair, but of art to design.
Right. And like there are certain things fit on this. Kind of line. , and on one side, I'm seeing like pure, like almost reactionary, like on the side of art racing this reactionary, like from the inside, like from inspiration from, you know, just, Oh, I don't care what the end end product is, but I'm just gonna put paint on the page.
Right. But then I see something like, like a video game or a play. , of course, UX design, right, being a bit further on the line, so it's still art, like we would still call a [00:28:00] play art, , we would still call a video game art, at least I would, lots of them, but it's a bit more on the, like, design side, where you have to know the end before you start.
I think is the, is the distinction.
Sarah: Or, yeah, that's fascinating because it's making me think about art installations
Nicole: that
Sarah: are absolutely seen as art in a museum, but with a plan. And the plan may be to have, so that you as the viewer have an experience. The artist wants you, wants to evoke an emotion. They want you to leave transformed or they want you to understand something, but there's a plan of like how to take you there.
And maybe some, much of art is created with a plan and a design in mind, and maybe there's also a lot of art which is not, right, which is not. So I don't know. But I do, I do feel strongly that there are many things that are designed that are also artworks in my [00:29:00] mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it is, it is a blurry, a blurry line if it is a line.
Nicole: Yeah. Have you ever been to , like a, like experiential theater type thing? Like, I think Art Basel has a lot of stuff like that, or like Meow Wolf is something that comes to mind. Have you, have you been? I have. I have been to Meow Wolf. Yeah. I have not, but it's like one of my life dreams to go.
Like that feels like it's designed to be a specific experience, , but also art.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Meow Wolf is amazing. I, I went to the Santa Fe location of Meow Wolf and There are so many layers. It is absolutely art. We have different spaces, physical spaces, where artists have come in and created physical work.
But then there's also the design of how you move through the space as someone who's visiting. There is a design of a narrative, there's a story that you can interact with or not, and then you can kind of choose how much you get involved [00:30:00] with. , but yeah, there's just a lot of different factors, , that again are planned for, , and choreographed in a way.
, but it's, it's also art, the whole experience of it is art.
Nicole: Yeah. I love using the word choreograph there. Choreograph is great. Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. I mean, this makes me all very happy to be honest, because I have no problem calling myself a designer. And I have felt uncomfortable calling myself an artist. And what's really interesting is that my inner child has only ever dreamed about being an artist.
When I was really young, I actually art classes, I, you know, I went after school to do art, , work. And, , I really wanted to, when you ask little kids, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up, whether it's a, you know, a pilot or a firefighter, an astronaut, I wanted to be the artist. And I think when I was in school for [00:31:00] design, , to get a design degree, I felt very far from being an artist.
And I felt like it was imposter. I couldn't call myself an artist because my skills became, you know, a bit more, yeah. Like this, this concrete, whether it's software, I had these different concrete skills and I wasn't painting and I wasn't, you know, creating, , these emotional works. And. It almost feels like through our discussion, there's much more permission to like see them as fluid and say, I am an artist and I'm an artist in this way and that also might change and my medium might change, , but not necessarily having to keep them very separate.
So my inner child feels very happy. I'm like, Oh, wait, maybe, maybe I can try this on for size. This, this term of artists and designer.
Nicole: Oh, that makes me so happy. You said that because. I feel the same way about my work. And I, I remember them asking us in first grade, I don't remember what grade, but like when you write down what you want to be on this piece of paper.
And then we had to do like a mind map based off of this. And I wrote author, like [00:32:00] author was my word. I wanted to like write. Books. , and now I write marketing copy and sometimes I feel like, oh man, like I haven't written something creative in like a long time. , I've journaled, but haven't , I used to publish fiction and I haven't since 2015.
Uh, , I think a word that's standing out for me from this , 16th century definition to contrive, plot, or intend, like contrive stood out to me too as like this, Manipulation,
Sarah: yeah, the intention, the intention. I love the word intention more than contrived.
Like, you know, obviously it has, it just kind of evokes different feelings, but, , yeah, having an intention and what. You hope the outcome may be, but as you mentioned earlier, having to be adaptable too, because we, we, it is life. We can't always plan for a specific outcome and we sort of have to flow, , with, with what life gives [00:33:00] us.
So,
Nicole: yeah, I think what I'm landing on though, is that like. It's a lot of responsibility to the people we're like putting through these designs, right? Like there's a lot of responsibility to be good, to be ethical, to be, um,
Sarah: kind. Absolutely. Well, there's a lot of conversation in the work that I do around dark, what we call dark patterns or dark, dark UI.
I mean, it's, you know, not dark UI in terms of our, Dark mode palettes, but in terms of, yeah, not, , manipulation or, you know, what we experience with social media and sort of this conversation that's so important for us to have now about what we know certain businesses, , and apps and, you know, online experiences, , are trying to, get us to do based on, you know, human psychology, , that we're not always aware of, or [00:34:00] we're becoming more aware of and sort of leveraging those patterns negatively.
So, , yeah, I think it's important for us to be aware and have, have good intentions with the work that we're putting forward, but recognize that and recognize that the plans do involve, like you said, emotions or human psychology, , and how people interact with those things.
Nicole: Yeah, I'm feeling this like wrestling inside of myself.
That's like hard, hard to pin down. , but like going back to something like a play or like an experiential theater, I love, , sleep no more in New York city. And like, that is a very like designed experience that, you know, I want. I want to have my emotions triggered, you know, like I want to be pushed and pulled in these directions and , be part of a, be part of a story.
Sarah: Yes. Yeah, unfortunately, I never got to see that and I believe it's, it's in its final, it's closing and it's in its final time. So yeah, that was, , but [00:35:00] there's a lot of amazing, immersive theater and different events that are, , are popping up all over the LA has a few of them and yes, it's interesting to see just different kinds of, , creative experiences that others, , are putting together, , that are maybe somewhat reminiscent of, of that.
That's great that you got to go.
Nicole: Oh, I went like ten times. It was so great. I mean, I was living in New York from, I left in 2017, so it was all before 2017. , but I went a bunch. It was like addictive. Because there was like all these different storylines. You know, you could go, if you went in one room, you'd see something different than if you went in another, and nothing was ever happening at the same time, so you had to go multiple times to see.
And I'm sure I didn't see everything.
Sarah: That's interesting. It kind of reminds me, yeah, of some, some video game design where like you can discover different things depending on, right, choose your own adventure of the journey that you're taking. And so there's a lot more to return to over and over.
Nicole: [00:36:00] Yeah.
Yeah. Do you play video games or have you made any?
Sarah: , I have not. No. , there, there's some, so I've, of course, you know, as a kid grew up with, you know, Nintendo and things like that. So I have, you know, in modern day times, I've done a lot of like Wii and, , some, you know, Donkey Kong racing and some of those kinds of video games.
But I got really excited about some of the narrative based games and, , again, choose your own adventure, which for kids, you know, Like me, 80s kids, , those books, Choose Your Own Adventure, was, were really fun. You could, yeah, take different paths and skip to different pages and have different endings.
And so, yeah, I was kind of curious about some of these narrative based games where, , yeah, cause and effect of, of what you interacted with. And I think for me, , the games that I, Have most experience with our mobile base, because I had done so much work with mobile apps and, , yeah, looking at, , design patterns and taking inspiration.
But, yeah. [00:37:00] I'm curious if you have video games that you love.
Nicole: Yeah, so many. , Horizon Zero Dawn is one of my favorites. I don't know if you're familiar. Ah, so good. Like I said, it's basically, yes, choose your own adventure novels were such a big part of my childhood. I loved them. And a lot of, like, modern, , role playing video games, right? They're basically choose your own adventure movies.
So they're so good. I like don't I always play on easy. I don't enjoy like hard bites. Like I want to be so a little like challenging like I wanted to feel like a real battle. But I don't want to spend too much time on them like I really like the story to progress. , my boyfriend is, like, he'll play it on, like, super hard, and it'll take him, like, ten tries to finish a battle, and I'm like, ugh, like, I would hate that.
I don't want to play the same battle ten times over. Uh, so yeah, I play for the story.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Different goals for, for interacting, and, but I have so many [00:38:00] fond memories of game, computer games from my childhood, because I played a lot when I was younger, because, you know, computer was, it's, it was such a good.
A big exciting thing we were on, right? Online in different ways, but you know, Oregon Trail, classic. I played Zelda, , just there are so many games actually that I don't even remember what they were called. I just have these snippets of these little visual memories of a screen. And I'm like, what was that?
Like, what was that game? Carmen Sandiego. Yeah. Oh, loved Carmen Sandiego. Yeah, just kind of like wondering because that again influenced me and it's kind of fun to think about that in my work now. Like, oh, wow, those early video games like Carmen Sandiego or, you know, even just Clippy. We were talking about Clippy recently because a tool called Notion launched their AI and they were dialoguing about the inspiration of Clippy, Microsoft Clippy back in the day.
And just those things that still show up in transformed [00:39:00] patterns that are more modern, of course, today, but like, are still existing. It's like, yeah, same thing with the game design. , I was thinking about Oregon Trail when I was designing for, , a company called Better Place Forests that is an alternative, , burial experience where you can have a memorial tree in a protected forest instead of being buried at a cemetery.
And. We were looking at ways to guide people through a forest experience. And so we were thinking about a digital forest steward and these, you know, prompts of, you know, messaging that you see in Oregon trail where some, you know, message gets unveiled and you have a character, right? Like those types of interactions were from, you know, that those experiences that are influencing, like how we're thinking about computer interaction today.
So it's really fun to go back in time.
Nicole: Ah, I love that. Okay. Well, we're nearing the end of the hour. So I want to take a minute to talk about, , designing your freelance business
Sarah: yeah. So, , I created.
This course [00:40:00] to help broadly to help other people who are interested in pursuing a freelance path, , and just support them in that journey because it can sometimes feel, , you know, there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of questions that come up when you're sort of doing things differently. So I had the intention to design the course for freelancers, knowing that I would likely.
Get interest from other people who are doing design similar to the work that I was doing. I think , It is sometimes hard to Translate work that we're doing in house working for an employer to like, oh, how would I offer that service as someone on my own? You know an independent how would I offer that as a consultant or a solopreneur?
, what's been really lovely is that because Starting your own business is again, can be by design and you can make so many choices. And I've had other types of people interested. So many still within, you know, the tech realm, I've had some engineers take the course, I have some product managers, but I've also had like coaches [00:41:00] who are doing like life coaching.
And yeah, it's just really wonderful to get to about, , the future of work and different ways of working and really. ground everyone in this concept that, you know, I've talked to a lot about today of like designing that the way that you want your life to be designing the way that you want your work to feel.
And I think that's really, , really powerful. And so that's something that I just like to, , put some time and energy into. It's not, it's not my main area of focus. You know, I run a design studio and I service clients. , But it's something that I'm very passionate about.
Nicole: Yeah, well, we are both, I feel like in the online space where we, we talk a lot about lifestyle businesses too.
Right. And that seems like design is very important in designing your lifestyle business, because if you're designing your freelance business, you can. Like pull in the things that are important to you. Like for me, that looks like, like [00:42:00] working with clients that inspire me or like. Now I usually don't work Mondays because my boyfriend has Mondays off because he works in theater, you know?
So it's designing your freelance life, like choosing all of these different parts of it and not just working for someone else, right. But designing the business to work with your life. Yes, I think it's the message we see a lot. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah: Yeah. Freelance is a creative practice. So there's a lot of exciting experiments and things that you can Try on you know with with pursuing freelance It does require the plans and some of the processes though and just like in that support and that structure and I think that's why I I Got so excited to create some scaffolding and frameworks for people to get started with.
, and it's been. really fun for me and very meta to think about designing materials, designing the experience of a curriculum, [00:43:00] designing, right, my business and how this course and this offering, , Freelance for Life fits into my, , freelance world and ecosystem. So, yeah, it's, it's something that,, is evolving all the time.
Nicole: Yeah. . Okay. Well, I think that by the time this comes out, I have a feeling doors will be closed to your current cohort of designing your freelance business, , but where can people find you if they want to get on the wait list or learn more about you or find your sub stack, where do you, where do you want to send people?
Sarah: Yeah. A good, easy. Place to remember to go to would just be freelanceforlife. com. , it's gonna be the sub stack that I'm writing in, and you'll be able to link from there to some courses and other workshops. Like I said, I've been doing a lot of experimentation. , trying to think about other offerings that would be supportive to freelancers in general.
So you can follow along there and you can always also reach out to me because I love having chats with folks who are excited about the same [00:44:00] thing. So yeah.
Nicole: Oh, I have another question that popped up. What, what role do you think experimentation plays in design? Is it an important part of it?
Sarah: Absolutely. I mean, I feel it's definitely a big piece of. When we're thinking about just the design process within the field of design that I'm practicing in right now. So experience design and UX UI design experimentation is really the when we're zooming out what we're what we're doing. And I think that's because when we dial it back to intentionally solving a problem or having a plan.
We have to put that into practice and learn from what we're experimenting with to make sure that we're actually meeting the needs, delivering on that plan, right? And like successful. So in order to figure out, because there's function here, like, well, as functionally as it's successful. And of course we have to think about how we're defining success, but so we're experimenting to kind of get to that [00:45:00] place.
So there definitely is a lot of, , trial and error. A lot of research plays a part of design. , and I guess that's another clear separation from art and some of the conversation about art that we had where I mean, art can be very experimental for sure, but , we're not always iterating, , right, in the same way for making change to achieve a certain outcome, yeah.
And so we're actually adapting as part of our process and going back to the drawing board or modifying so that we can actually get. to the place that we want to be. So yeah, experimentation is such a big part of the process. Experimentation for me is, has been a huge, , mantra, a really important, meaningful mantra for, for myself in my life.
, I like to like everything as an experiment and that's really helped me just kind of take some pressure off as someone who's sort of a recovering perfectionist and yeah, someone who, , you heard like has a hard time even [00:46:00] calling myself an artist, the thing that I really want to be and. Just knowing that, like, everything is experimental, and I think that I'd love for people who are interested in pursuing freelance to really hold on to that.
Knowing that everything is an experiment, because I think there's a lot of fear that holds people back, and knowing that you can always make another decision, you can always change your mind, you can try it on, and then let it go.
Nicole: Yeah, that's so important. I love that. Everything is an experiment, which is, like you said, so hard to hold onto, especially when, you know, money is involved and, like, we're trying to, like, it becomes so tied with meeting our basic needs and it makes it hard to experiment, but it's so important to experiment.
We have to, like, find a way to do it even within the system that we live within. Exactly.
Sarah: Yeah. And maybe there's amazing people who are out there trying to redesign the systems, which I am. So in all of,
Nicole: yeah. All right. Well, we will link [00:47:00] to freelance for life in the show notes. , thank you so much for coming on, Sarah.
This is such a big word and I'm sure there's like, I know there's so many directions we could have gone that we didn't have time for, , But yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Sarah: Thank you for having me. This is super fun. And yeah, I love the opportunity to just research a little bit into this and kind of go back in time with you and have more understanding of, , the origins.
And I mean, like I said, this is such a word, big word that affects my life in so many ways. And it's really nice to just take this time out with you and, , have some attention on it. So thank you for the opportunity.
Nicole: Thank you so much for listening to It's All Poetry. You have no idea what it means to me to have you here. This podcast is recorded and produced and edited by yours truly. I've had to learn a lot of tech, y'all. You can find all the resources and links from this episode in the show [00:48:00] notes. At Nicole copy.com/ it's all poetry.
The music you hear throughout is by Jack Pierce. And if you enjoyed this episode, there is a bunch of other stuff that you might want to check out from my weekly newsletter with marketing prompts to one-on-one copy coaching for your business to branding guidance, uh, and more things that I'm not even aware of at the time of this recording because I add stuff all the time.
But it's all right there at nicolecopy.com. Thanks again for loving words with me. I'll see you next time.
Looking for more info about Sarah?
Website: huzzahstudio.com
Substack & courses: freelanceforlife.com
LinkedIn: Sarah Jutras
We also mentioned:
Paul Rand’s philosophy on design and “life-centered” UX
And I leave you with this…
As Sarah reminds us, “everything is an experiment.” Consider how you design your days, your work, and your relationships. What would life look like if you brought the creativity of design into your own daily choices?
