23. "Pleasure" = to be approved? (with Sarah Diedrick)

Oct 5

What if the word 'pleasure' has been whispering "approve me" all along?

Today, I'm thrilled to dive deep into a word that's more complicated than it seems: pleasure. In this episode, Sarah Diedrick (writer, sex educator, yoga teacher) and I explore the multifaceted nature of pleasure and its importance in our lives.

In this episode, you'll learn:

How the definition of pleasure has evolved over time and its connection to approval
The difference between seeking pleasure and being receptive to it
How our nervous system impacts our ability to experience pleasure
The cultural messages we receive about pleasure and how they shape our experiences
The importance of communication in relationships and pleasure
How pleasure intersects with work, rest, and daily life

Indulge in the pleasure of new perspectives—tune in to our latest episode:

Note: Transcripts are AI generated. Please excuse any errors! :)
Nicole: [00:00:00] Oh hello, welcome to It's All Poetry, where in each episode we talk about one word, in depth, with one guest. We will bring you surprising word histories, etymologies, our real life stories about words, thoughts on the way we use those words to connect with each other, yeah, basically it's a podcast about words.
My name is Nicole Cloutier, and I am a copywriter, poet, and general word nerd, and I can't wait to dive into this with y'all, so let's get started.
Hi, Sarah. Hi. I'm so glad you're here. Okay. Everybody listening. I have Sarah Diedrich here with me today on It's All Poetry and Sarah is a writer, a sex educator, a yoga teacher. , Sarah, you founded the Sex Ed Book Club and also I see that you take anonymous Sex ed questions and answer them in your newsletter, which is super cool.
is there anything else you want people to know about you up front? [00:01:00] No, I think you got it all.
Sarah: Cool.
Nicole: Oh, okay. And so today we are going to be talking about the word pleasure, , which from that short little bio I just gave of you feels super relevant to so much that you do. So can we start just by, like hearing a little bit about your personal connection to the word and what it means to you?
Sarah: Yeah, it's quite a complex relationship and it's been quite a journey. I think it's evolved over the years, especially since I started my work in sex education. Over the years, especially the, I'd say the last three years or so, I've really expanded what pleasure means to me. I think growing up, being inundated with media and certain messages from popular culture, I always equated pleasure strictly with sex.
And over the years, I've expanded that and [00:02:00] realized that pleasure is so many things. It can be just how we delight our own senses, things we take pleasure in, anywhere from having really intimate, sweet, tender relationships to eating food. Or it could be sex. But for me now, sex Or excuse me, pleasure is, is very broad, and sex can be one of the things that's under the umbrella of pleasure.
But yeah, for me, pleasure is just this really broad strokes term for anything that brings me delight, brings me into the present moment, and makes me feel more intimate with the people or the places or the things that I'm engaging with.
Nicole: Yeah. And it's, it's interesting. Cause we're going to dig into the definitions in a bit, but sex is always a part of the definition, but it's never the first thing mentioned in the definition.
So, I thought that was pretty cool.
, so what are some things that are bringing you pleasure lately?
Sarah: New friendships. [00:03:00] Um, I've been cultivating some new friendships recently, and that feels really good. Friendships that make me feel exactly who I am. And friendships where I'm not judging myself or being self conscious about who I am or what I'm doing. Last weekend I actually threw a brat summer dance party with my friends and It filled me up so much and it felt so pleasurable because we just got to be together and dance and laugh and be silly and I think I've really been touching in on my playfulness lately and in a, in a way, I feel like I lost that connection to playfulness for a while and it's coming back and that honestly feels so pleasurable.
So yeah, just, just relationships that feel really nourishing and help me tap into my authentic self. Yeah.
Nicole: Oh, I love that. And I love like new [00:04:00] friendships, especially as an adult. I feel like like we always talk about how hard it can be working from home remotely as an adult.
That sounds
Sarah: lovely.
Nicole: What about you?
Sarah: It's been bringing you pleasure lately.
Nicole: Great question. I live in Florida where it's really, really hot and something that's been bringing me pleasure lately is the are these early morning walks with my dog. She wakes me up at like 6am, which I am a morning person, but not like a super, super early morning person.
But these like walks before the sun is up. It's still way too hot, like already like being that hot in the darkness is strange, but like just kind of the quiet of this early morning that I don't experience other times of the year because I don't need to wake up so early, um, to go for this walk and, yeah, I've been really enjoying that.
I've also been writing creatively a lot more, which has been bringing me a lot of pleasure.
Sarah: It's like, yes, that is like the sacredness. Like I think of that, like writing in those early mornings to me, it's just, there's this like [00:05:00] sacredness to that. It feels very spiritual. Yeah. Ways. Love that.
Okay, well let's look at some of the definitions. So the way we'll do this is we'll look at the modern definition, chat about it, then we'll look at a definition from 1828 and chat about it, which I always love
Nicole: and then we'll look a little bit at the etymology, like the deeper history of the word. Okay, so the modern definition is, you know, so there are two I want to call out. There's a noun and there's a verb. Okay. So that I like looking at both of these for this word in particular. So the noun is desire or inclination, a state of gratification, sensual gratification,
or a source of delight or joy. Oh, and one thing worth noting under sensual gratification is it has frivolous amusement. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Frivolous. Yeah. Which makes me think that like pleasure is extra. Yeah. What do you think about that?
Sarah: [00:06:00] Yeah, because frivolous to me is, is like, it's not important.
It's not as, doesn't have as much depth or it's somehow like a little bit more hollow, which is funny because that's, I think of pleasure in the exact opposite way. It's like frivolous to me is like, Oh, something we can write off or maybe something that doesn't need to be prioritized.
Nicole: Yeah. It's like not in our hierarchy of needs,
Sarah: which
Nicole: I kind of disagree with.
Sarah: Oh, for sure. The thing we need most is pleasure in our world, in our like busy, hyperproductive world.
Nicole: Yeah. So the fact that like our modern definition, like Merriam Webster is choosing to add frivolous, I think that says a lot
Sarah: about where we are. Yeah. About like cultural views around pleasure. For sure.
Nicole: Well, it makes me think too, and I think I shared this experience, but when you said earlier that you felt like you kind of lost your connection to pleasure, like what was the cause of that? Do you [00:07:00] know?
Sarah: I had gone through some traumatic events and grief, um, and. It was kind of this thing where I was so bogged down by what was happening to me.
It was like I had tunnel vision for years, and my priority then was to stay safe. And being in that traumatic state and in the residue of the specific event, it was like I was always on guard. And I was in this chronic fight or flight. And when you're in chronic fight or flight and you're just on guard and trying to keep yourself safe, it's really hard to be receptive.
And I think receptivity is a huge part of playfulness and lightheartedness. And when you feel safe, there's this letting go. And I think from the letting go, Sense of [00:08:00] playfulness can arise. So as I've tended to that and healed in a lot of ways and gotten to a new place in my trauma and my grief and also just cultivated these really supportive, beautiful friendships, I've created this kind of safety net that I can lean into.
And now there's more space for playfulness to come back to the surface.
Nicole: I love that, that like, I think the way you said it was like playfulness. Requires receptiveness or something like that. Yeah. That, that feels so important because even like there's a different energy, even in conversation, right? Like I grew up with a lot of social anxiety and in conversation, if I am not feeling playful and I'm not, if I'm not receptive, then it's hard to engage fully like with someone and truly listen to what they're saying in a receptive, responsive way.
Sarah: Totally. I feel that too. That really resonates. And some of my work that I do, especially in the realm of yoga, but I weave it into sex [00:09:00] education is nervous system regulation and what does that mean and how do we respond to stress? And, you know, when we're in our sympathetic, I mean, we're, we're always in it kind of, and it's important, but in that fight or flight state where we're really alert and we're on guard, that's different than being in our parasympathetic and often the parasympathetic is known as rest and digest, but it's also.
It has to do with being social and learning and play and receptivity. And so when we are feeling safe and receptive, and maybe we're tipped a little bit more into that parasympathetic response, we're also feeling more social. And I think when I feel more social to me, that means I'm really interested. In what's going on around me.
But when I'm in fight or flight, I'm like, me, me, me, what's going on in my world. And I need to like pay attention to me. And that's like where the tunnel vision comes in. And then I feel like when I'm feeling safe, the lens widens and I can [00:10:00] actually extend myself to other people in this really genuine and interested way.
And like you said, be really present, um, with the people and the things around me.
Nicole: Rest, digest, and play. I love that. Okay, so continuing on with the definition, so if we look at the verb, the verb, you know, has the same implications, but it's to give, Or to take pleasure, right? To give pleasure, if someone is pleasuring someone else, they are giving, or, you know, to take pleasure or delight or to seek pleasure or delight.
So it's really just an action of the same definition.
Sarah: I find it interesting, the words seek and take.
I think I have to sit with that a little bit, but what comes up for me first is. Taking can be pretty intense, like, to take something, I don't know, and then to seek out pleasure, I mean, I think, I think that's [00:11:00] true, right, like, I think as humans, we seek out pleasure, like, we're seeking out these, , dopamine hits and, right, but going back to receptivity, I also think There can be this sense of letting pleasure come to you in a way, and being receptive and open to pleasure that you may not have noticed if you were actively seeking it out, if that makes sense.
I think there's, there can be a seeking that is present and a kind of ambition, but for me sometimes, Seeking something out can lead to having an expectation, and then that takes me out of the present moment. And for me, pleasure lately has meant savoring, and just kind of being with what's here and letting go.
Certain pleasures come in, and sometimes it surprises me, like if I just, if I sit and wait, I realize, oh, [00:12:00] I, I didn't expect that , like I didn't, I didn't expect that to be a pleasurable or delightful thing to come in. So I just think it's interesting the words take and and seek, um, they're pretty active words and I think there is an element to that.
But then I think there's also this kind of other side to it as well.
Nicole: Yeah, hearing you talk like the way you were describing that it almost like, like immediately I felt more relaxed, like, Oh, right. I don't have to go looking for pleasure. I can sit by my window and right. It's just in the other room from where I'm standing right now.
And yeah, the, the idea of taking implies someone else doesn't have what you are taking from them.
Yeah. Yeah. And seeking feels like you have to be like jumping out of planes every, every weekend, like there's never enough. That's what it is. If you're seeking, there's never enough. There's always like a bigger pleasure to be had.
Sarah: Yeah. Like you're never satiated. Yeah, I think what you said about taking, that has interesting implications in [00:13:00] the realm of sex and taking someone's pleasure or like taking something from them, which is interesting.
I think about growing up and the messages I received growing up was that I had to orient my pleasure. To men's pleasure, like that was just about whatever I was listening to or reading or watching. That was the message that I picked up was like, I need to conform my pleasure to fit a man's needs and the way that a man's desire works and operates, and I need to serve and placate.
Men's pleasure and so there, that to me, that feels like there's a taking away of what I authentically want and need because I am conforming to someone else's.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, you just described all of my [00:14:00] twenties. Seriously, me too. Yeah, absolutely. Man, I'm glad that's over. That was so tangled.
Sarah: Yeah, I agree. It's very tangled. And I, and I think that's what attracted me to becoming a sex educator was I started to kind of, you know, do this personal work of untangling all of that and looking at my own sexual insecurities and the ways that I operated relationally with other people and kind of picking apart the messages that I had picked up over the years and that's honestly the foundation of all my work.
I feel like a lot of healing can be done just by looking at those messages and calling them out and Interrogating the, the conditioning around pleasure and sex. And, and that's what's been really rewarding about book club is we get the chance to do that. It's this really beautiful, open, nonjudgmental discussion about, you know, what did you pick up along the way?
And now that [00:15:00] we're looking at those things, we can ask the question, is that really mine? I've just been carrying this with me all these years, becoming totally enmeshed with these messages, understandably, because we're young and we're malleable. And we don't know better because we either have a lack of sex and pleasure education, or we have harmful versions of it, restrictive versions of it.
And then you stop and you realize. Oh, my gosh, that's, that's, I don't want to carry that anymore. That doesn't fit or align with what it actually means for me.
Nicole: Yeah. And coming back to that verb definition, right? The seek and take,
Even being the person who's sacrificing, , in retrospect, it feels like, like I was giving up something, right. But I think there still was a seeking of pleasure in it. Like there still was like an active, like I'm seeking pleasure by giving up my own.
Sarah: Yes. I think, I think [00:16:00] there's that both in there for sure. Like we're trying. I think about like clawing my way through, like clawing my way through all of the noise and a deep part of me really trying to connect with my pleasure and what that means authentically, but then being confused. And.
Yeah, I guess it's just so like you said tangled. Yeah, but and I think we're always we're always trying to connect with that deeper, more genuine place of pleasure and satisfaction and joy and we can get lost in the shoulds. And I think when we're confused and we're lost and we're trying to figure it out, it can feel almost comforting sometimes to cling to those shoulds because it feels like some sort of guide or lighthouse.
So it makes a lot of sense like why we would jump to those things. [00:17:00] Yeah. And then It's scary work to stop and detach from those. Or, or to be like, it worked for some time, and now I'm checking in and I'm realizing that doesn't work for me anymore. Like, it actually maybe genuinely aligned at the time, but we're always changing.
And I think it's important to have those check ins with ourselves about, is this feeling pleasurable still? And if not, are there boundaries I can set or are there new grooves I can make, new paths I can go down to find that new version , that works better for me?
Nicole: Yeah. I love the way you framed that because it feels less like a cold turkey severing from what you were doing before and more like a, like, is this working?
Can I let it go gently? You know? So I like that energy you're bringing to it. Okay, let's look at the 1828 definition because I think it's kind of beautiful. And also it's, it's kind of long. There are three [00:18:00] parts and I, I kind of want to share it all. Usually I try to, I try to trim it down, but for everyone listening, , stick with me here because I think it's all very interesting.
So in 1828, the noun pleasure. So part one is the gratification of the senses or of the mind agreeable sensations or emotions. the excitement, relish, or happiness produced by enjoyment, or the expectation of good, opposed to pain. We receive pleasure from the indulgence of appetite, from the view of a beautiful landscape, from the harmony of sounds, from agreeable society, from the expectation of seeing an absent friend, from the prospect of gain or success of any kind.
Pleasure, bodily and mental, carnal and spiritual, constitutes the whole of positive happiness, as pain constitutes the whole of misery. Pleasure is properly positive [00:19:00] excitement of the passions of the mind, or the mind, but we give the name also to the absence of excitement. When that excitement is painful, as when we cease to labor, or repose after fatigue, or when the mind is tranquilized after anxiety or agitation.
Pleasure is susceptible of increase to any degree, but the word when unqualified expresses less excitement or happiness than delight or joy. Wow.
Sarah: That took me on a ride. Thanks for reading all of it. I'm glad you did. I love this idea of sensuality and sensation and our senses and the way we receive the world. Because our senses are really these windows. And of how we receive the world.
So I really loved that. I loved how they said the harmony of sounds, [00:20:00] it just brings me into this very present moment and just noticing what's in my environment. I thought it was really interesting how they said it's kind of the opposite of pain. And then part of it said agreeable sensations or emotions, which I'd want to challenge that because I feel like pleasure isn't always this agreeable, pleasant experience and sometimes it involves this edginess or this, or challenging emotions and feelings, um, in order to continue in the long run to feel a sense of delight and safety and joy.
Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, you do always hear pleasure and pain. Like that feels like such a common [00:21:00] pairing of words. , yes, they feel like maybe opposites, but also as most opposites do like a part of the same thing. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked what it said about, , well, and like, doesn't like would love to discuss further.
I don't know if I fully agree with, but the idea of pleasure as being after pain, which in a way implies to me that, well, it implies this idea, which I don't think is untrue that sometimes we need the contrast in order to understand what something is, right? Like you feel pleasure after you've, you know, It says cease to labor, right?
Or when the mind is tranquilized after anxiety or agitation, right? So it's like seeing that extreme day of hard labor, working, building a house, you know, and you're exhausted and then you have pleasure in the absence of that when that is over. But yeah, it implies the contrast is necessary.
Sarah: Yeah. I like that thought. It's really interesting to think about, especially cease to [00:22:00] labor. I know this is an older definition, but it makes me think about pleasure is this reward that we get after a full day's work and we almost compartmentalize it and separate it from the rest of our life.
And I think the question in my own personal life and in my work is, how do we actually weave pleasure throughout all of that? How do we integrate pleasure into our day to day and take moments of pause? And, yeah, I find it interesting that it, you know, it's like, once you've done this, Then you can do something, you can treat yourself, you can, which, fine, like, I'm all about that, but why do we have to wait?
And I, and I think that might have to do with the view that pleasure is this grandiose gesture, whereas if we think of pleasure in a more expansive way, there are these really [00:23:00] subtle, small moments of pleasure. All the time. So it could be stopping in your work day and listening to the harmony of sounds, as we've said.
So I, I just think that's really interesting. This divide, like there's been this dividing, this divider between our productive work days and then we can have pleasure after. But how do we get to a place where we can integrate pleasure into all of our day?
Nicole: Yeah, I think that's something that, you know, I'm, uh, an elder millennial just to place myself in time.
And like, I think that's something that, um, my generation, has struggled with our whole lives because the structure, like it's set up to be like, work hard, retire, work hard, retire. And I feel like we've all been kind of, Battling that for like decades, like, wait, that doesn't sound fun.
And a lot of us, especially like online businesses, you know, a lot of people who are running their own thing, like we're trying to design a way to work and survive in this [00:24:00] economic ecosystem while not giving up pleasure,
Sarah: right? Yeah, no, it's true. I'm 35. So I feel like. I grew up with that too. It's like, okay, so you have fun when you're a kid.
And then in the prime of your life, in like the biggest chunk of your life, you hustle and you grind. And then in the, and then in the later part of your life, then you get to enjoy. And. It's tough because we live in a capitalistic culture and we have these really oppressive systems where people have to really work their asses off to just survive.
I mean, we're feeling that more, like, really, we're feeling that right now. And how do we grapple with that? And how do we just survive, you know, and make enough to live and to enjoy pleasure? And, and that's, that's really tough, you know, like, I, I have to name that it just, it isn't always easy to be like, Oh, well, cool.
Let me find pleasure throughout my day when people are [00:25:00] really struggling, um, with a lot of things. And, you know, I don't necessarily know how to answer that question, but I think it's just a constant practice of trying to find glimmers of it. as best we can within all of that.
Nicole: Yeah. And it is really hard and so many people are really trying like, yeah, really trying to make it work.
And it's, I think it's important to acknowledge that everybody struggles with it. Yeah, I have a business I've been working on for like since 2018. And so it's been a while and it's reached a place where I'm like, feel like it hums along, you know, it's got its engines, but I still get so incredibly anxious, like looking down the line.
So,
Sarah: yeah, that security, that sense of security. I feel that too, as a business, you know, I own my own business. I, I do a lot of different types of work and in the back of my brain, there's always this hustle mentality. You know, do I make, can I make [00:26:00] enough this month and I'm good now, but when that runs out, what will I do?
And, you know, I'm always like on it versus feeling like, okay, I have a consistent paycheck every month. And there's a sense of security and, oh, I have built in health benefits and things like that. I mean, the beautiful side to that is there's flexibility and there's creativity in that. And a lot of my work feels like.
Play and pleasure and just things I would do normally in my life. So there's, of course, with everything, you know, there's like pros and cons to it all and challenges and joys. Yeah. Do you ever feel like going back to a full time? There are times I think I've, I don't, I've never really had. a full time, well, not a like salary job because I've been teaching yoga since I was, let's say it's been 12 years.
So since I was 22,
Nicole: yeah,
Sarah: I've been teaching yoga. And so, you know, I've been a contractor doing contract work, basically self employed working for [00:27:00] studios. And there were times where it, Was definitely felt more full time and consistent when I was at one studio teaching trainings and classes and retreats and all of that.
But I do have some days where I'm like, Hmm. Just, maybe I'll work for the man. Maybe I'll work for someone. It's always a dance in my brain.
Nicole: Yeah, and I do think I've seen, I've seen that conversation happening in different spaces that I'm paying attention to lately of just like, sometimes it's okay to just get a, get a day job.
I remember when I, um, when I graduated from grad school, I went to grad school for writing, for creative writing, and I had a professor tell me, get a job at a flower shop. He's like, don't, don't make your writing support you. And I think Elizabeth Gilbert has a similar quote in Big Magic of like, don't.
Like I decided I wouldn't make my writing support me. Like I couldn't demand that of it.
Sarah: Sometimes
Nicole: a day job can help you do that.
Sarah: Yeah. [00:28:00] Where'd you go for creative writing?
Nicole: Sarah Lawrence.
Sarah: Oh, amazing. Wow. Do you know Melissa Phoebos? Yeah. I think she went there? Or taught there? She
Nicole: teaches there. I don't know if she still does.
She was when I was there, and she was for a while after. She's one of my favorites.
Sarah: Yeah? Amazing. Whipsmart.
Nicole: Fantastic
Sarah: book. Oh my gosh, so good. Bodywork? I haven't read Bodywork. Amazing. Oh, that's so good. That was so informative for me. There's actually an essay called Mindfuck in it about writing sex scenes, and she mentions her work as a dominatrix.
It's really, it's really good. But, yeah. Yeah, I got that message to grow. You know, I went to school for English and creative writing and got the same, same message. Um, and I, and I think there's something really valuable about having that structure of a job that you go into. And for me, having that structure actually is really important for my more free form work that doesn't have a [00:29:00] schedule.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It's always harder. Like I'll always have things on my to do list that are For my business and for clients. And it's so much easier to do the client work because someone like is expecting it. And I always keep delaying the stuff that, you know, I mean, my client work is pleasurable, luckily too, but I always delay the pleasure stuff.
Right. Which is maybe because of that definition that makes me think it's superfluous, or not superfluous. Yeah, or that our pleasure doesn't matter as
Sarah: much.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. All right. This is all coming back around. . Let's look at the etymology a little bit. So it's from, , pleasure is from Latin, placere, , which is to please, give pleasure, be approved, uh huh.
That's interesting. I didn't notice that when I was doing research earlier. To be approved. Oh boy. Um, also from late 14th century, which is discretion, will, [00:30:00] desire, and preference, as in at one's pleasure, when one wishes. Hmm mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It started meaning sensual gratification from early 15th century.
Um, that of indulgence of the appetites as the chief object in life is attested from the 1520s. Uh, and the ending, so the ER was added in middle English just because of influence of other words that started ending in error, like measure .
Sarah: Oh, okay. Yeah. Interesting. So
Nicole: that's like an addition. , and then. So we get more of the sexual sense by the 1610s, um, as in like the verb, like pleasured, pleasuring, um, give pleasure to take pleasure in.
So that starts appearing like later, but yeah. That's so interesting. What are your initial thoughts with that one? Yeah. Well, obviously the B approved stood out to me. Yeah. Because I feel like that was like underscoring what we've kind of been. It's so fun, because we've been seeing that, [00:31:00] like, to be approved as part of the word, but we didn't really know that it actually really was part of the etymology, um, like the oldest part of the etymology.
So, I mean, yeah, I take pleasure in being approved. I've been working with a business coach, and I just said to her yesterday, that I, like, love meeting with her because I would rather, I would rather die than not, like, show up with my assignment.
Like, there's something about being approved by her that is part of what makes the process successful for me as someone who loves being a student.
Sarah: Totally. I understand that completely. Yeah, being approved of. I mean, that's, I think, why I love, part of the reason why I loved school. I loved getting, I loved that feeling of my professor praising my work.
Yeah. And I remember I was in a poetry class and he kind of cut apart one of my poems, like really gave it to me. And I was like, no, I'm going to work on this poem. I'm going to revise it, revise it and prove something to him. And it [00:32:00] felt so gratifying when he, when I came in with the other draft and he was like, This is stellar.
And I, it just, yeah, it, it feeds our ego, you know, but it's interesting to think about that in the context of pleasure with someone else being approved of, and that dynamic.
Nicole: That feeding the ego part is so interesting. Do you think that's always a part of pleasure?
Sarah: That's such a good question. I'm you made me immediately think of new relationship energy. Part of why it's so intoxicating is like, it feels good when you're like, someone's attracted to me. This is really exciting. They think I'm hot, like, there's a confidence boost. Building aspect of that, which I think is great.
Like, I think, I've been talking to my friends a lot about this lately. Like, how do you enjoy that type of energy, but stay grounded?
Nicole: Yeah.
Sarah: And [00:33:00] not let it sweep you away. I think, but that's interesting about the ego being a part of pleasure. I think there, I don't think it always has to be a part of it, but I think it can be.
Yeah,
Nicole: I once heard, um, a quote, which I might've mentioned before on this podcast, but it's worth restating. , Kara Lowenthal is a teacher I used to follow a lot, um, online. And she once said the only love that you feel like that you actually feel is the love you feel for others.
Sarah: It's the love that you're giving.
Nicole: Yeah, it's the love that you're giving that you feel. And to me, the reason I'm bringing that up is because that kind of takes ego out of it. Like, if we substitute love for pleasure here, it's the only pleasure you really feel is the pleasure that you are, like, going from the inside out.
Which implies more of a mindfulness, ? Like finding pleasure in the small moments, [00:34:00] like, rather than seeking, which is what we were talking about earlier.
Sarah: Right. Huh, that's really interesting. It makes me think about the way we love others can be an indicator of where we're at with ourselves internally.
Yeah, the ways that we're able to offer love freely can really say a lot about where our internal state is at
Nicole: and,
Sarah: and where we're at in our own, comfort levels and self approval and, and, and things like that. Huh?
Nicole: Yeah. Well, and the idea that she teaches, Carl Lowenthal teaches something called thought work, which is the idea that like thoughts cause your feelings.
So it's like the external is like teacher praises my work. I have the thought, like, I'm really good at this, and that causes pleasure, the thought. Rather than the teacher doing something, it's the thought that you have after
Sarah: that causes the pleasure. One of my teachers, Judith Lasseter, says it's not about what I say, it's about what you hear.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Sarah: So, similar to, you know, what is the perception [00:35:00] of that thing that is being said, and what's it being filtered through?
Nicole: Yeah. I don't think we're going to solve this one, but it's an interesting
Sarah: conversation. I always say it's a good sign if we have more questions than answers. Yeah, I think, I think it's very, that word approved of or the sense of approval.
I mean, going back to earlier days and being intimate with other people, that was my whole thing was, I want the approval of the other person. And in order to get that, I have to appease them. Versus finding this dance between what are both of our preferences? What do each of our versions of pleasure look like?
And can we meet somewhere in the middle and, and have this sweet balance of like give and take? To like further expand on that. And this is just if I just like [00:36:00] go there with sex. So hopefully this is okay. But I mean, I. Had sex with someone, and when I say sex, I use a broader definition, like, sex has conventionally been defined as penetration, or penis and vagina sex, and like, I'm expanding that to other acts, but I had sex with someone before I had ever masturbated.
Like, no one taught me about self pleasure and that it was okay and that it was beautiful and that it was right to explore my body. And so I started having sex with other people before even exploring what felt good for me. And so in a way, I think, one, I was given the message that I should placate other people's pleasure.
And then two, I just didn't know. I just had no clue what it is that I wanted or needed. And so of course I defaulted to other people's. And then I thought, [00:37:00] oh, okay, so, so this is how I'm supposed to experience it.
Nicole: Hmm. And
Sarah: learning about sex and digging into comprehensive, holistic sex education. I've been learning about the differences in how people experience desire and pleasure and the nuances of it all.
And that has been really beautiful. revealing journey.
Nicole: I want to ask more about that, what has been beautiful or revealing about it?
Sarah: I'm really interested in desire, in sexual desire and desire came up in the one of the definitions that you read. Yeah. Preferences, desire, and I'm going to use man and woman, and I don't mean to be binary, but unfortunately, a lot of the research within sexuality is on cisgendered folks, men and women, but, I first read this and come as you are by Emily Nagoski, which is an incredible book.
If anyone's looking [00:38:00] for sex education, it's such a great resource. But from that, I learned about how men and women's desire operate differently. And so, there's spontaneous desire, and then there's responsive desire, and oftentimes men experience spontaneous desire, which is desire that emerges in anticipation of pleasure.
So, oftentimes, you know, that could look like seeing someone attractive, Or thinking about sex and being turned on and having a desire for intimacy or an interest or a motivation to have sex. And that's often what we see. It's like, when I grew up watching movies, no foreplay. It was just like, bang, ready to go.
Somehow it just gets in there. Exactly. Like, wait, there's a whole part missing. Like, what? [00:39:00] And So , I was like, okay, that's, that's how my desire has to operate. But it didn't operate that way, and so for years I felt broken, I felt like I was doing it wrong. And then I come to find out about responsive desire, which didn't really get the exposure that it should, but responsive desire is desire that emerges in response to pleasure.
Or physical intimacy. So I often have responsive desire, which for me means I actually need to connect with the person intimately before I'm interested. In having sex with them. So that can look like a really deep, emotional, connected conversation. Or actual physical touch, like non sexual, sensual touch. I need some sort of bridge to get me to that place where I'm open to having sex.
And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, that [00:40:00] curiosity is there. And because I didn't know that back then, I didn't ask for certain things that I needed. I didn't say, hey, I need a lot of foreplay before we get into things. I just defaulted to what I was seeing and experiencing. And I feel really lucky to have stumbled upon, like, Come As You Are and this type of education that really shows the spectrum of how desire works and also names that it's context dependent.
Like, desire, sexual desire, has often been seen as this thing that just happens. It's this physiological, innate response, but context plays such a role. In our desire and influences our desire. So do we feel safe where we are? Are we stressed out? What's our emotional state like? Are we feeling fulfilled?[00:41:00]
All of those things are going to heighten or dampen our desire. Also, just the general pressure to have desire. You know, like, everyone should be, should desire sex and everyone should be having sex. Well, no, there are a lot of people that aren't having sex, you know, there are folks who identify as asexual and don't have a desire for that and that's healthy too.
And we've been given this like black and white scenario, you know, and So I think for me, that was a big aha moment when I recognized that it's okay that for me, there's like this slow boil and that I need certain contexts and I need certain elements in place to feel safe enough to open up to someone in such a vulnerable way.
Yeah.
Nicole: Well, there's that whole other step in there too, right? , of realizing the way that you need things. And then [00:42:00] communicating that you need something different than what is popular, than what is being displayed. Like, those feel like two separate steps.
Sarah: Yeah. I totally agree. Yes. And that's hard too, because if we, we grew up in a society where sex is taboo, we don't talk about it, it's in the shadows.
And so, if we're not building that muscle of talking about what we want and what we need and what we desire, it's gonna be really hard to communicate. Right. And I used to think I had to do it in the moment, but it's even harder when you're in the moment. So I'm like, how do we learn to talk about it outside of the bedroom, you know, and start to build that muscle?
But it's, it's really hard. It's like, it feels like a heavy lift when we're not used to that. How do we, like you said, articulate and voice? Those desires and I think there's a learning curve and we're always [00:43:00] learning, you know, I, I'm not at this place where I'm like, I always communicate really well and feel really confident.
It's like, there has to be that sense of like messiness and again, play within it and experimentation and giving yourself grace, , in unlearning certain things and learning other things.
Nicole: Yeah, I think that's important to kind of highlight. Like, I feel like right now I am in like the healthiest relationship I've been in my whole life.
Like I love my partner. We're great at communicating and it's not always easy still to like bring things up, you know, that I know we need to talk about, , that worry over causing someone else dish displeasure and hurting their feelings in any way is still very present. Yeah. In my mind. Back to that ego piece.
Like, I'm gonna
Sarah: hurt their ego. And how do I enter that conversation? That always feels like the hardest part for me too, is just bringing it up. And then once we get into it, I'm like, oh, okay. This is why we do this. And this feels really good. But. The anticipation can, can
Nicole: be a [00:44:00] lot. Yeah. That is the worst part.
And yet, for some reason, I make the anticipation as long as possible. Like, let's continue to suffer.
Sarah: I know. Versus like, let's just, let's just go for it and get it over with. It's like, it's like with setting boundaries. I always get nervous to set a boundary with someone and then I do it and I'm like, ah, this is why I do it because it feels so freeing and I feel like I cleared up a bunch of space and now we can be on the same page and, and move forward.
But it's scary when you're dealing with other people's emotions and feelings and you, you don't want to hurt them and you, and you care. But it's, it's such a big piece of the puzzle is that communication. We are walking around assuming what people are thinking or feeling or what they want. And it's not until we communicate that we're actually really gonna know what, what the deal is.
Nicole: Well we're reaching the end of the hour and it always happens, it happens so fast, but I want to [00:45:00] start to wrap up by asking you, do you feel any differently about the word pleasure now than you did when we started this conversation?
Sarah: I do in some ways. I think I, I love The different sentiments that were brought in . I think something that was really interesting to me in this conversation was the topic of, of pain and challenge that can come with pleasure and edginess that can come with expanding our pleasure.
I also, you made me think a lot about when you said indulging in appetites. I just immediately thought of how food is one of, and has always been, one of my, one of my best, most favorite pleasures and it's like, you know, learning about food and plants and the way they nourish us from prepping food and making food, eating food, and also getting pleasure from seeing [00:46:00] other people enjoying food.
Like, back to that self pleasure and relational pleasure, you know, it feels so good to enjoy delicious food, but to be with someone, it's such an intimate experience to share food and know that we're both We're all delighting in our senses in that way.
Nicole: Yeah. Food is such a big one for so many reasons.
That's when I teach, I teach writing workshops sometimes. And , one of my favorite prompts is write about a meal. Like it can be a meal you love. It could also be a meal you hate, but there's always like. All your senses are involved, ? You, you can see it, you can smell it, you can taste it.
You can hear the, hear the sizzling in the slot. Like there's so much involved of like our sense, our senses, the way we are present. , and there's also so much, as you said, like community involved around food, like every culture has like something around a meal, a food, like coming together, making something together, feeding each other.
Yeah, it's a rich, rich topic.
Sarah: [00:47:00] Yeah. It's such a potent sensory experience and something that I've been trying to practice is not gobbling down my food and trying not to let the productive, busy mind come into moments of eating. So I've been trying to eat outside without my phone or distractions and chew my food more and eat more slowly and that's been such a beautiful practice for grounding myself.
And, and I'm like, I just spent an hour making this beautiful dinner. And then 10 minutes, it's gone. I always, I grew up in a family that really extended our meal times. And I feel really grateful for that. Where, Our dinner was our time to connect and to really get into it. And I feel really lucky that I grew up with that because for me, dinner is the most intimate time for me.
Like it's when I get to enjoy something pleasurable with my people. And I love talking about food with my friends. It's one of my [00:48:00] favorite things. And so I really covet it. I really cherish meals with people. And it's this one time in the day where we just get to stop and feel into that primal original sense of pleasure that we were all made to experience, but it gets lost in the, the human, you know, day to day stuff.
So it's really special time.
Nicole: Yeah.
Awesome.
Sarah: Well,
Nicole: I feel like you I can just like feel the depth of like the information that you have about this topic. So if people want to experience more of you, if they want to join the book club, like where do they find you?
Sarah: Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation. This is obviously one of my favorite topics. Um, yeah, I really loved getting into it with you. So the best ways to find me are through Instagram, which is at Sarah Diedrich, just my full name. And then a great way to dive deeper is through my newsletter on Substack.
And my newsletter is called Intimate Distance. And I send a newsletter out. about [00:49:00] once a week. I write a lot about desire. I write a lot about what we talked about. And then like you said, I do a monthly sex ed Q and A where people can submit questions anonymously. And then I answer them. And that's been really fun because I've, I've had a chance to explore topics that I may have never picked because of what people send in.
So
Nicole: yeah. That's awesome. And we'll drop all those links in the show notes so people can find it easily. But oh my gosh, Sarah, this has been, this has been so great. I have loved this conversation and, and yet I feel also like there's so much more to be said about it. So, um, thank you for this.
Sarah: Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening to It's All Poetry. You have no idea what it means to me to have you here. This podcast is recorded and produced and edited by yours truly. I've had to learn a lot of tech, y'all. You can find all the resources and links from this episode in the show notes. At Nicole [00:50:00] copy.com/ it's all poetry.
The music you hear throughout is by Jack Pierce. And if you enjoyed this episode, there is a bunch of other stuff that you might want to check out from my weekly newsletter with marketing prompts to one-on-one copy coaching for your business to branding guidance, uh, and more things that I'm not even aware of at the time of this recording because I add stuff all the time.
But it's all right there@nicolecopy.com. Thanks again for loving words with me. I'll see you next time.